From NGOs to Employment Coaching: Helping Thais Find Their Purpose [S8.E28]

Greg Jorgensen 00:00:05 On this episode, we talked with a former guest and employment strategist about her role preparing Thai youth for the future.

Ed 00:00:11 So if you wondered what young Thais think as they move from school to the real world, you'll dig this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg Jorgensen 00:00:32 Sawa. This is the Bangkok podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Bangkok in 2001 to try some thermal baths, but got confused and ended up trapped in thermae for several weeks.

Ed 00:00:45 I'm sure you did deep. Sure you did.

Greg Jorgensen 00:00:47 Bangkok back in the day. Cut there.

Ed 00:00:50 And I met an American who came to Thailand on a one year teach contract over 25 years ago. Fell in love with trying to convince Thai people that Thailand is not actually a poor country, so I never left.

Greg Jorgensen 00:01:02 Oh that's funny. Sometimes I still hear people say that. Especially Western dumbasses who say something like, oh, you use the third rule. All the countries in Asia, third world.

Ed 00:01:10 Well, Bangkok.

Greg Jorgensen 00:01:11 First of all, I'm not even sure that term applies anymore.

Ed 00:01:13 Bangkok is so first world. It crushes my hometown.

Greg Jorgensen 00:01:20 Yeah. Yeah, totally. I think people would be shocked. But you know what? Let him stay over there. We like it here.

Ed 00:01:26 All right. We want to give you a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get every episode a day early, behind the scenes photos of our interviews, heads up to send questions to upcoming guests and access to our discord server to chat with me, Greg, and other listeners around the world. But best of all, patrons also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week where we riff on current events and Bangkok topics. On this week's bonus show, we chatted about Greg's evening out with two former guests of the show, Nomadic Matt and Joe Cummings, and why sitting on the street eating barbecued prawns is a classic Bangkok experience that's getting harder to find. The terrible accidents that saw two giant construction cranes over two days collapse on a train and a highway, and what it says about Thailand's road safety and thoughts on the disintegration of the many scam centres in Cambodia and the US, decision to stop Thais, among many others, from applying for resident visas, to learn how to become a patron and get all this good stuff, plus full access to over 800 bonus and regular back episodes.

Ed 00:02:34 Click the support button at the top of our website.

Greg Jorgensen 00:02:37 Yeah, and also don't forget to remind everyone if you're out and about in Bangkok and see a Bangkok Podcast sticker. Take a photo, send us three pictures of three different stickers and we will send you a very nice little gift. Keep your eyes open. All right. On this episode and interviews Tanita Nina Wong about her work with the United Nations, and her new startup, which promises to help young Thais find meaningful work in a dramatically changing society and work environment. Now, Nina was a previous guest on the show in season three, episode eight, Way Back on October 2nd, 2018. Ed and Nina recently got back in touch, and the two recorded an overdue catch up conversation about the prospects Thai youth are facing as they head off into the big, bad workforce. So here is Ed's discussion with Nina 1%.

Ed 00:03:31 Well, I am here with my old student and now friend Nina. I'm going to avoid a torturous pronunciation of her Thai name so I know her by Nina.

Ed 00:03:39 I'm just going to go with that. Nina is a former guest on the Bangkok Podcast in October of 2018, which is hard to believe. So the first thing I want to do is I want to welcome dinner back to the Bangkok Podcast.

Ninar 00:03:52 Thank you. I can't believe it's been.

Ed 00:03:54 I know it's scary.

Ninar 00:03:55 It is?

Ed 00:03:56 Yeah. I think it's like seven. Seven ish. I don't know, but it was a long time ago, and I can't believe time flies. I actually, at the time you were on the first time, I had only been doing the podcast. I think like a year or so you were, I can't remember. I think you might have been the first former student of mine who I got on the show, and then after that I had a couple more. But I think you might have been the first, and I guess we could talk about that a little bit. So our show at that time was about gay rights in Thailand and the same sex marriage movement. And, at least we have some good news is that Thailand became the first country in Southeast Asia to legalize same sex marriage.

Ed 00:04:36 So high five, high five. So things can get better. So that's the good thing to remember. Yes. We don't get everything we want, but sometimes good things do happen. So what I wanted to do in this interview is just bring our listeners up to speed with Nina from the introduction, you know that Nina was a great student of mine. Pleasure to teach her. And she went on to have a very interesting career. So she's now kind of moved on and doing some other things. But I thought you could catch us up on your work was mainly with with the UN, is that right?

Ninar 00:05:08 Used to.

Ed 00:05:09 Right. Used to. But but after graduating, was it mainly the work you did?

Ninar 00:05:14 Yes. I mean, I work a lot for international organization across different social issues and UN is one of them. Yes, actually around different UN agencies.

Ed 00:05:24 Or different agencies within the UN.

Ninar 00:05:26 Within the UN for around 4 or 5 years, six years maybe, are on and.

Ed 00:05:30 On.

Ed 00:05:30 So our program I think is totally solid. It's my job to make it like academically good appropriate. What was it like for you to to step into this prestigious international organization? Was it intimidating at first? Like how did you feel? What was it like to to just go to work at the UN?

Ninar 00:05:48 I remember my third year at Bas. They took us to the UN field trip.

Ed 00:05:54 I wonder if I did.

Ninar 00:05:55 That for the third year.

Ed 00:05:57 I only went to the UN once, and it was for, it was for some type of, moot like model un thing. Was it for that or something else.

Ninar 00:06:06 That actually came after the first one? We actually volunteered for women's rights movement.

Ed 00:06:12 Oh, cool. I don't think I.

Ninar 00:06:13 Did the movement.

Ed 00:06:14 So you had been there before?

Ninar 00:06:15 Yes. I think in my third year, that was the first time I was exposed to the UN system. How did that feel? I mean, a lot of people at Bas, I'm not sure about now.

Ninar 00:06:25 In the past when I studied, they talk a lot about if you're really, really good at bas, I mean, you should aim for UN. And we have alumni visiting us back to campus. Yeah. And talk about how successful they are in this journey.

Ed 00:06:38 When you started to work there, was it scary at first? Was it harder than you thought? Do you feel like you were ready to do it?

Ninar 00:06:45 For me, I, I don't think like that because I think getting into the UN is the journey of getting there that excites you. I mean, it's not easy. You can't you can't just drop yourself and then apply and get a job.

Ed 00:06:58 I don't have to get it right.

Ninar 00:06:59 Because there is a journey that happened before that. I mean, you need to volunteer. You need to get engaged with communities that they they are, that they support. You need to understand their community. You need to put yourself in that community. And that takes a lot of energy and time.

Ninar 00:07:16 And so when I land on this job, I mean, we live.

Ed 00:07:19 Basically. I got here. Yes.

Ed 00:07:21 So basically you had to do a lot of like extracurricular work, activist work, and kind of you had to kind of fill out your resume to make sure you were appropriate for the job.

Ninar 00:07:29 Correct. I think it's what happened before getting to the UN. I think that's that's that's the one.

Ed 00:07:35 Well, that's actually that's a good lesson. I mean, it shows you that, you know, getting a degree from a good university, getting good grades in a competitive job environment is not going to be enough. You're going to have to do other things. So at the UN, you said you'd worked on different social issues. Can you just give us some examples of what type of social issues I mean?

Ninar 00:07:56 UN works on every issue. Right. And when you fit into the organization, where in that structure do you contribute it to? So for me, what I did was to help them with public information.

Ninar 00:08:07 I know it's really a traditional word to say, but that's how you in court translate to a modern language. It's more about PR marketing campaign, awareness campaign. What do you encourage the countries to do? What do you encourage individuals to do? So that has been my my scope of work, but I change topic from time to time. So my latest one was to preserve the ozone layer.

Ed 00:08:31 Preserving the ozone layer. So kind of a climate change issue. Yes. Related to climate.

Ed 00:08:36 Change.

Ninar 00:08:36 Yes. Now related to climate change and greenhouse gas emission. Before that I did cybersecurity for.

Ed 00:08:42 Oh, wow.

Ninar 00:08:43 Yeah.

Ed 00:08:43 And so this is the UN. Are these educational programs are there trying to educate Thai people about cyber security or what?

Ninar 00:08:50 Know every UN agency. Try to educate people something. So for the cybersecurity, I work under the Office of Drugs and Crime in Asian Pacific. So we look at cyber security. Before that I work with Unicef during Covid. So the campaign was about vaccination.

Ed 00:09:07 But who are you? Who's receiving this. Like who's your target audience?

Ninar 00:09:11 It depends on what the UN tried to target on that issue. So if it's the author layers, it's obviously business owners. large corporate government would be our audience. Main audience.

Ed 00:09:26 I see, it just sounds exciting. I mean, I'm jealous. I mean, I used to be a lawyer, and then I went from that basically into teaching, and I love teaching, but, I've never had a chance to do this type of activist thing. And, you know, obviously in my classes, I teach tons of different social issues. We already talked. I'm going to I'm going to try to get you to come into my, my Thai society class and, hopefully, like, you know, give them some of your experience and knowledge, but it sounds like a great way to start your career.

Ninar 00:09:53 Actually, I would like to share this with you. Something someone from bas told me this when I was trying to find my way to the UN, and he said to me that if you want to work for the UN, do not work for the agency.

Ninar 00:10:06 Do not try to understand, who are their target audience, but try to understand their mission. I think I don't I in the past, I don't think I shuffle around jobs, I think I shuffle around missions.

Ed 00:10:19 Oh, I see.

Ninar 00:10:20 Because it's usually something we need to achieve in this particular time, by this particular time. So look at the UN in that model. I think that would make the adventure much more joyful.

Ed 00:10:31 So actually care about the mission and make that your goal.

Ninar 00:10:37 Yes, because one mission you can have many audience. So if you look from the audience angle, you will not see the big picture.

Ed 00:10:43 Oh, that makes sense.

Ed 00:10:44 Yeah.

Ed 00:10:45 No I like it. That's that's good advice now. Now, obviously, you're a native Thai speaker. Was part of your job interfacing. Are you are you going between like, international people speaking English and then Thai people over here? Was that a big part of the job?

Ninar 00:11:00 Oh, it's beyond Thai. I mean, I met people around the world.

Ninar 00:11:03 I mean.

Ed 00:11:04 You have to speak English with them, right?

Ed 00:11:05 Yeah.

Ninar 00:11:05 I mean, sometimes I don't understand that English.

Ed 00:11:07 Because it's.

Ninar 00:11:08 Different.

Ed 00:11:08 You know? Right, right, right.

Ninar 00:11:09 Yeah. But we found a way to to communicate. I mean, it's an international community.

Ed 00:11:13 It's. Sure.

Ninar 00:11:14 So. Yeah. Thai. I talk to Thai people. I talk to foreigners.

Ed 00:11:19 Previously, you and I talked a little bit about your current venture, which is not quite ready for public consumption, but it's kind of in the planning stage and preparation stage. So what is your next project?

Ninar 00:11:32 So my work, my work has been about okay, let's put it this way. My work is about helping people to find their purpose. But this purpose should still matters in AI era. Just put everything to conclude. That's basically we have. So our users, they will take a clinical assessment. Then the result, they will get personalized inside to learn about who they are. Have you heard of mBTI?

Ed 00:12:05 I've heard of it, yes.

Ninar 00:12:06 The four letter thing that tells about your personality. So this one is personality, strength, interest and beyond. But what you would get is you would get matched with the roles of the future.

Ed 00:12:20 Okay. So trying to find the right career path for you, that's actually something meaningful and purposeful, especially in the modern era where we have AI.

Ninar 00:12:31 Well, first, it's the purpose that is right for you. And that purpose turns out to be right for the future reality as well. So that is pretty much what I'm doing.

Ed 00:12:42 I see.

Ed 00:12:43 You know, in, in my case. So teaching in a in a Western style program. But having most of the students be tied, there is a obviously a bit of a culture clash. I mean, we are part of our curriculum. The purpose is to, I don't want to say westernized. We're not trying to turn our Thai students into Westerners, but we are trying to get them to be ready to interact and interface with kind of the international community.

Ed 00:13:12 Like, your story is perfect because you went from our program to international NGOs, and now you're dealing with people from around the world. So our goal is, is to kind of do that. And I know, I know, this is a bit of a cliché and a stereotype, but my image of the kind of average young Thai worker, I again, it's a bit of a stereotype, but I feel that mostly they're just trying to get into a good, solid Thai company, and then their goal is to just be a good employee, be a good soldier. Do what the company wants. For the next 40 years, you know. I mean, and of course, I'm. I mean, to be a little bit personal. This is exactly what my dad did. You know, when my dad got out of university, he went to one company, and he stayed there for 39.5 years. So this is like old school, the old school idea of employment. Whereas in the West, I think it started maybe in the 90s.

Ed 00:14:06 People are actually preparing themselves to work 5 or 6 different jobs. Like everyone knows, you're not going to be able to stay here forever. And so the focus is on making sure you're the right type of person to take care of yourself. And in other words, you can't expect the corporation to take care of you and make you happy. You've got to actually take charge of this. And is this is this related to what you're doing? So I feel like you are you're maybe trying to modernize how young Thai people think about their careers. Is that Does that fit?

Ninar 00:14:42 That is correct is part of it. But what we are building is we're not just looking at Thai or Asian people. We're looking we're not looking at student needs. I mean, student is one.

Ed 00:14:50 Of them okay? We are not only two.

Ninar 00:14:52 People who are not clear about their purpose. People who have their own purpose. But that purpose doesn't matter anymore. I mean, it expired. I mean, you can spend 5 or 6 years studying something.

Ninar 00:15:07 When you graduate, you feel you ready. You look for a job and you are not needed, right?

Ed 00:15:14 Right.

Ed 00:15:15 Right.

Ninar 00:15:15 Yes. That is the problem that we are trying to solve.

Ed 00:15:19 Yes.

Ed 00:15:19 So actually, it could be someone at any stage of their career.

Ninar 00:15:22 Exactly. It could be a retiree. I mean, we did learn a pilot with someone who is almost 70 years old who did the test. She's also Ty. and she found her new hobby. Because the thing about her generation that you mentioned the. I'm not trying to stereotype neither, But, for me, all the people, I mean, not all the people, but people with a lot of experience, people who are now probably 50 or 60s, they're really loyal to, to their work.

Ed 00:15:50 Which.

Ed 00:15:51 Is the old way.

Ed 00:15:51 The question is why?

Ninar 00:15:53 Why did why did they do that? I mean, I talked to a lot of young people. They can't even they don't even equate. They don't even put that in their equation that, oh, I'm gonna work here for ten years or 20 years.

Ninar 00:16:04 They just think I'm going to pass probation in three months. And it's not about them passing probation. It's about a company passing their probation or not, because young people, they have really strong voice. They don't tolerate what people from different generation used.

Ed 00:16:19 To, I.

Ed 00:16:20 Hope I mean, I think in general it's a good change. I think we talked about it a little bit, but, in in your former faculty, we are trying to increase enrollment. So we're doing more marketing. So we're trying to figure out like, how do we sell liberal arts and humanities to young Thai people. And, but part of it is this danger of, as you pointed out, you could go to school and study something narrow. And it is useful. For some reason, I always use accounting as an example. I don't mean to pick on accounting, but, you know, it sounds like a good idea. Like to get an accounting degree. Every company needs accountants. That's very useful. But then technology changes or AI and now all of a sudden accounting is, you know, not a good job or it's very hard to get a job as an accountant.

Ed 00:17:07 And the question is can you adapt? Like, are you ready for that or are you now lost, you know, can are you the type of person who can do one thing or many things. And I'm at least trying to create, you know, promote this idea that like a liberal arts and humanities curriculum, it kind of changes the type of person you are because, you know, from our program, you know, your first class in the morning, you might be studying the American Civil War and the second class, you're studying Shakespeare and. And the third thing you're talking about is the war in Russia and Ukraine. And then in the afternoon you're going to come back and talk about, you know, the middle income trap in the Thai economy. So it's I and I'm a big supporter of this breadth because I think it changes how your mind works. It's like you have to be adaptable, you know, and you were good at this. You can just go, okay, Shakespeare, I have something smart to say about this thing.

Ed 00:18:00 And then the next class, it's politics and the next class is economics. So I think this fits with this idea of, like you said, that hopefully younger people. I hate the phrase Gen Z, but I'll use the phrase Gen Z. Maybe they already get this. Maybe they're not expecting to work for 30 years for the same company.

Ninar 00:18:20 I don't think they plan to work for 30 years at all.

Ed 00:18:23 I mean, this.

Ninar 00:18:23 Generation, they want financial freedom and they can. The thing is, they can. They don't need to work for 60 until they turn 60 or maybe 70. In the future, they might expand it, right? They don't need to work to 70 and then get pension. I don't think that they design their life. I think this generation. They want to design the life and they are doing it well.

Ed 00:18:45 Well, to me this is good news because to me, this this fit better to me with humanities and liberal arts. So hopefully this could dovetail. You know I'm you know, again I'm not a big fan of the phrase Gen Z a kind of a generalization.

Ed 00:19:00 But I think it is true that generations are different, and what appeals to one generation doesn't necessarily appeal to the next generation. So like a university like us, we do have to adapt ourselves to a certain extent, or at least change how we explain what we're doing.

Ninar 00:19:15 I'm quite stuck with the word adapt. I mean, you say like, can we adapt? I mean, we have to adapt.

Ed 00:19:21 But are you ready to adapt? You know what I'm saying? Like, can your mind handle.

Ninar 00:19:24 The thing is, this is not the first time that human needs to adapt, right? I mean, you taught me about agricultural revolution. We were nomads.

Ed 00:19:32 We were we Yeah. That's right.

Ninar 00:19:33 Yeah. We we we we move around and then we won't really.

Ninar 00:19:36 Want the stability. So we friends up we, we set her down. That's right. And when.

Ninar 00:19:41 We.

Ninar 00:19:41 When, when humans stay we have so much time we can thrive. We can do a lot of things. And that's right.

Ninar 00:19:47 Industrial revolution. Fast forward 200 years. Until today we have AI era. This is not the first time that humans have to adapt. We have been adapting all the time. And if you look at career or human purpose, I mean, I watched Netflix the other day and it's a vintage, like 100 years ago. We used to have like a switchboard operator. You have that say when people do.

Ed 00:20:09 That, right.

Ninar 00:20:11 The switchboard operator for an example did not disappear. It changed form. Everything is changed form. So it just may take 100 years to change from switchboard operator to maybe AI operator.

Ed 00:20:26 Right. Sure.

Ninar 00:20:27 So but how can a human being can a person know how it's going to turn into. How it's going to evolve into. I mean, we're looking at programming as a job, for example. It's going to change into something else. Do you know how it's going to change in 20 years?

Ed 00:20:43 I'm with.

Ed 00:20:44 You. Yeah.

Ninar 00:20:44 We cannot. So that is why our work.

Ninar 00:20:47 The work of my team, we're doing to make people see that future, see those realities of the future. It's not just one version.

Ed 00:20:57 Of I.

Ed 00:20:58 Like it. You know, I have to give a shout out to my friend. And I wish I could remember off the top of my head. He was a former guest on the podcast, but my buddy Jim from Cleveland, Ohio, he has his own podcast called Jim Jim's Reinvention Revolution and so on his podcast. He does have older people who are going through these adjustments. So someone who oh, I was an accountant for 20 years. I made good money. I bought a house, but now those I don't have those jobs anymore. You know, so I'm 45 and I have to change direction.

Ninar 00:21:30 Oh, you explain your achievement and your new generation don't understand.

Ed 00:21:33 Yeah, yeah. Not relevant. Yeah.

Ed 00:21:35 Like what? What's an accountant? You know what's a programmer? So Jim Jim's reinvention Revolution listeners. I recommend checking it out.

Ed 00:21:43 It kind of dovetails with with what we're talking about. So. So this project, how would you label it? It sounds like kind of maybe a type of consulting, but you're not only focusing on employment, it could be finding a hobby. Correct. So it doesn't you're not necessarily helping someone find the right job.

Ninar 00:22:03 Exactly. I mean, what we're trying to do is to answer really fundamental and existential question of human. I mean, human have always asked what we're born to do at some point in your life, you need to ask that, right? But this question is now, it's not just that question anymore. When we when you try to when you start to change the question from what am I born to do? To what am I born to do, that the future still needs it. It's even harder. Sure, it's even harder. So I'm not just focusing on employment, people who just got laid, or people who are scared of losing their job, or people who are fresh graduates of first job are looking for a job.

Ninar 00:22:42 I don't look at them. I mean, like that. I think that we are helping human find purpose, no matter what stage of their life is what their psycho graphic data is. We don't care about that. I mean, if you want to look for purpose, if you want to confirm your purpose, or if you want to futureproof your purpose, we can do.

Ed 00:23:05 Okay.

Ed 00:23:06 I'm going to ask a dangerous question. Okay. Okay. I'm curious if this type of thinking is something kind of new in Thai society. And the reason I bring this up is, listeners know I used to be a lawyer when, after I've been a lawyer for about five years, I just had this realization. Oh, my God, I don't want to do this. And I went to law school. I got in debt and I really felt lost. And it was actually the the first time I felt really lost. Because, you know, when you're in school, it gives you a purpose, a goal, like, I want to graduate, you know? And then I went to law school and it's like, so, you know, school gives you this, oh, I want to get the degree.

Ed 00:23:46 And there's this focus. And then I wanted to get a job, and I got a job that I thought was a good job. And so it's just like you feel like when you're young and things are going well, I call I call it the Golden Road. Like, you're just on this golden road and everything's going fine. And it's just like, life's good. You're winning, you know? But then, you know, hopefully, listeners, you stay on the golden road your whole life, I hope. But just most of us, at some point we just hit some kind of wall where we're like, oh shit, this is not working, or I don't want to do this. And for me, I was lost. Like I was working as a lawyer in Chicago. I quit and I went to go work. The first thing I did is I went to go work for a bookstore in downtown Chicago, and it was very weird to do this, but in the bookstore they had like a self-help section, you know, and part of it was like a career self-help.

Ed 00:24:38 And I don't know if it's still around. It might still be around, but it was a big brand in the 90s. There was a bestselling book called What Color Is My Parachute? And it's the idea is like I'm falling in life and where do I want to land? And it is similar to what you're talking about, and it relates to all of those psychology tests and trying to figure out what type of person you are. but this was super popular in the States in the 90s. So this way of thinking, the what you're talking about. I feel that it was, I don't want to say it too old. I mean, it's kind of something that is always relevant, but do you think that you might be one of the first people doing this in Thailand. Like, it's just it just sounds. Maybe most types aren't thinking this way.

Ninar 00:25:31 Normally we definitely disrupt how Thai system or how Thai people would think with our system. You study for four years, right? You work for 40.

Ninar 00:25:42 Just look at that timeline. Four years. You study 40 years, ten times more.

Ed 00:25:46 You work. Yeah.

Ninar 00:25:47 When Thai families plan their their kids life, their kids future, they think about or go to really good university. Go study this because this is going to make a lot of money, right? And then, and then land on a good job and parent's job is done.

Ed 00:26:04 Yeah yeah yeah yeah. That's right.

Ninar 00:26:05 That is your analysis in one hour. Like I said, four years.

Ed 00:26:10 40 years. That's right.

Ninar 00:26:12 What our project is trying to do is put you on that. The end of the spectrum, the end, the goal.

Ed 00:26:17 Think about where you want.

Ed 00:26:18 It to.

Ninar 00:26:19 Be.

Ed 00:26:19 The end goal.

Ed 00:26:19 Interesting.

Ninar 00:26:20 That is what makes us different from how time was most of Thai people think, I mean, it could be in the next 50 years, but you need to see where you're gonna stand. Not exactly where you're gonna stand, but.

Ed 00:26:31 What's.

Ninar 00:26:32 What type of environment, what type of industry like, you need to understand where are you.

Ed 00:26:35 Going to be?

Ed 00:26:36 What's your ultimate.

Ed 00:26:37 Purpose?

Ninar 00:26:38 See that picture clearly and then walk back. Reverse back. If you want to be there, what do you need to do? Maybe you don't need a degree.

Ed 00:26:45 Yeah. True, true.

Ninar 00:26:46 A lot of things that you want to do that will help young generation reach financial freedom, which is their number one priority. True that you don't need to do the old way of doing. I mean, they can work for a couple of years and they can they can retire.

Ed 00:26:59 Yes. Agreed. Agreed.

Ed 00:27:01 I do think in Thailand, from being here so long and having so many students, a lot of times there's just a kind of a generic blueprint. And even some of our students who are nice and polite, they're not that motivated. And I've had many experiences over the years where I'm talking to a student who's getting C's, you know, getting C's, and I'm giving them advice like if you do this. If you spend more time like you can get a B and they don't want to get a B like they, they want the degree to make their parents happy.

Ed 00:27:31 So they're totally happy. Getting C's like for real? Like they're just wait, I got to see what's the I'm winning like it because they really just want that degree. And, you know, as you know, there's a very famous moment. Listeners might not be familiar with this, but there's a a very key moment in a young Thai person's life where they get handed their diploma, usually by a member of the royal family, and there's photographers there. And that photo, that photo of your son or daughter.

Ed 00:27:59 Hanging.

Ninar 00:28:00 Everywhere in your.

Ed 00:28:00 House.

Ed 00:28:01 That his parents put that up on the house and, as you pointed out, like they're done. It's like we did it. We got through. And it's funny because I've had students just tell me this directly, like, yeah, I just need that. I need that picture. So they're, you know, it's frustrating for me because I want them to be excited by ideas. I want to turn them into like, critical thinkers and creative people, and they just want cease.

Ed 00:28:25 You know, but but I think, you know, and again, you know, this is the dangerous part. Every culture is different. But I really do think when you have this simple, generic blueprint. I think you are more likely to wake up unhappy at 45 or 50 because you never did what you're talking about.

Ed 00:28:43 Yeah.

Ed 00:28:43 I think that's true. I mean, I'm a Westerner, I guess, but I just think that if you don't do this kind of thinking that you're talking about, you're more likely unhappy. And I think that is a general human thing. It's human. Like you said, it has nothing to do with culture like purpose. Purpose, I think, is an individual choice. I mean, it's going to be your options are going to be affected by your culture and you might. and again, I'm curious, after you have done this, like if you find a difference because you're probably going to be giving some advice to foreigners and Thai people. I'm curious if it ends up being different, but purpose is a human thing, you know, and it's an individual thing that everyone has to work out.

Ninar 00:29:24 I think we must have purpose. It explains why you exist.

Ed 00:29:28 Yes.

Ninar 00:29:29 It explains when you have a bad day, you wake up, you don't want to go to work. What is your purpose? Why are you waking up for? Right? It reminds you every day. I think purpose is what you choose every day. I mean, a lot of jobs that human have been doing. I mean, it's not good for human, don't you think? Like some jobs are not good for humans? And I think as as more human responsibilities kind of get delegated to AI, we need to rethink about what actually matters.

Ed 00:29:55 I think it could be because.

Ninar 00:29:56 I free.

Ed 00:29:57 Us to.

Ninar 00:29:58 Do a lot of things, but we are still struggle. What is that thing that we can do because we are so used to being productive, being useful all the time?

Ed 00:30:06 Yes, yes, it's.

Ninar 00:30:08 Kind of scary.

Ed 00:30:08 So yeah.

Ninar 00:30:09 That's why purpose comes.

Ed 00:30:10 In. I love it, I love it.

Ninar 00:30:11 I mean, and you talk about studying humanity. I'm just trying to think about the moment I study in the class, right? I think a lot of students may question, why are we studying human? I mean, I'm here to learn and to earn, right? Yeah, but how can humanity lend me any. Any job opportunity? Turns out it's actually the opposite, I would say.

Ed 00:30:34 I mean, I think so, especially in this kind of job environment.

Ninar 00:30:38 I'm curious though, can I ask? I mean, you you sure probably have seen what you're looking for in a paper nowadays, right? I mean.

Ed 00:30:48 I don't know. It's an interesting question.

Ninar 00:30:49 How do you design question that still make thinking unavoidable? I mean, it's like we get access to knowledge equally.

Ed 00:31:00 Right.

Ed 00:31:00 Well, I mean.

Ed 00:31:01 I.

Ed 00:31:01 There's definitely the problem with AI and security issues, which actually has affected my classes.

Ninar 00:31:06 How do you ensure that your questions make thinking unavoidable?

Ed 00:31:11 I'm smart. That's how I do it.

Ed 00:31:14 No. Well, I mean, it's a good it's a I like the way you phrase it. So, listeners. This is. I'll finish on this note. I don't want to embarrass neener, but in my 17 years of teaching, I've had I've had a bunch of good students, and I think Nina was one of my best students. But I'll be honest, I can think right now of just a few. Not many students who are probably better than in are a few. But here's the honest to God truth on essay exams. In 17 years, I've given exactly one perfect score of 100, and.

Ed 00:31:51 I got.

Ed 00:31:51 It and it went in an hour. She's the only one I read.

Ed 00:31:54 I think the.

Ed 00:31:54 American.

Ed 00:31:54 I think it was.

Ninar 00:31:55 American.

Ed 00:31:55 Government.

Ninar 00:31:56 Yes, I took it first year.

Ed 00:31:57 I remember I read, I read her final for American government and I was just like, this is it's perfect. It's all the material, plus your own thoughts. And I remember you, like, filled, like every corner of the page, like you just wrote so much.

Ed 00:32:10 And I'm sitting there because when I read a really good exam.

Ninar 00:32:14 That sounds.

Ed 00:32:14 Nerdy.

Ed 00:32:15 It was nerdy when I read it. Really good exam. I'm just like 95. Like, that's a great score. I don't give a lot of A's and I'm like, I'm about to write 95. And then I'm like, oh, this is like a 97. And then I think I gave it in 97. And then I'm like turning it around. There was nothing like, this is it?

Ed 00:32:33 This is the best 100. Thank you.

Ed 00:32:35 Only student. Thank you to get 100 on an essay exam done. Okay. Anyway, thank you very much for being on the show.

Ed 00:32:42 Thank you so much.

Ed 00:32:43 Hopefully we'll check back in maybe a year or two and hear more about your project. it's fascinating and I think it fits with humanities and liberal arts. So we're we're cousins. We're on the same team.

Ed 00:32:53 Yes we are.

Ed 00:32:54 Okay.

Ed 00:32:54 Thank you.

Ninar 00:32:55 Thank you so.

Ed 00:32:55 Much.

Speaker 7 00:32:59 Thank you.

Greg Jorgensen 00:33:02 Man, that was great.

Greg Jorgensen 00:33:03 I love hearing from young, really smart tie people. And we've talked about this before about you. You see that side of Thailand much more than I do. I don't see that I work with, you know, crusty old people. There are young people in my office, and they're awesome, too. But, you know, just these, like, really internationally minded, very, very smart, well-spoken ties. I don't interact with them as much as I want. And when I do hear them speak about really cool stuff, it gives it gives me a lot of hope and pride in Thailand.

Ed 00:33:34 Well, undoubtedly, Nina's one of the best students I've ever had. She was just a gem of a student. And it is true that I, you know, one of the key parts of my job is that I. I'm just around smart young people. I'm at a pretty good university. I like our program. Our friend, Professor Kelly, who recently gave a talk at my university. She had a good experience interacting with my students, and so I'm proud to say my students are pretty good.

Ed 00:34:03 But Nina is definitely above above average, as you can tell from the interview. She, yeah. You know, even since, you know, she always was smart. But now, like with years of work experience and she's been. She's been in a kind of competitive NGO like international community of like. Smart people. she's, she's only gotten to sharper.

Greg Jorgensen 00:34:26 It's really interesting that the strategy she's applying sort of like these these, I don't know whether to call them Western strategies, but sort of like, you see them a lot in consultancies and things like that. Back end wasn't, you know, the classic is seven Habits of highly Effective people and then the personality types and things like that. And I got to say, you know, using these sort of scientific methods to narrow down and refine and define who you are and what kind of things you'll be best at. I've always sort of had a bit of a chip on my shoulder about them, and I never really took them seriously. To be honest, I kind of think they're bullshit.

Greg Jorgensen 00:34:59 But then when I take them and I have taken them several times in my life, I get the results and I'm like, damn, that's pretty spot on. Yeah, that's me to a team.

Ed 00:35:09 Well, I mean, obviously there there's there's scammy stuff out there, scammy personality tests out there. But, I just like the, the, her just the basic concept of trying to find work that means something to you. And, you know, this is just a human. It's just a human problem. Because a lot of jobs, people are working just because of circumstances, because they have to pay their bills. Then there's nothing wrong with that. That's the state of most people. But in the long run, the the nice thing would be, is if all of us could find our niche and something that actually makes us want to get up in the morning and go to work, that would be nice.

Greg Jorgensen 00:35:47 Yeah. And, you know, to be honest, it took me, you know, 35 years of working to find, hey, I've liked all of almost all of the jobs I've had and well enough.

Greg Jorgensen 00:35:59 But the job I'm in right now is, is I really, really enjoy it. But it took 35 years of ups and downs to get there, you know? but you remember you remember that episode of friends? This is a nerd court, but where Chandler, who has a job as a data entry person and he hates it, and he really wants to find out what he can do with his life. So he takes all these really expensive tests and the results come back and say you are ideally suited to a position doing data entry. It's like, oh.

Ed 00:36:25 No, actually I never saw that episode. That's funny.

Greg Jorgensen 00:36:29 Well, I did, I did I did do a little bit of digging around on this stuff, and I sort of was trying to find out what the number one or top three, worries that young tie people have when they go into the workforce and who seem to be most more consistently. The first one was, the schools and universities often teach theory rather than the specific job skills employers want.

Greg Jorgensen 00:36:49 And I think that's probably becoming more and more important as you have, like Western, international, global companies trying to recruit locally. And there might be a mismatch between what they want and what they get.

Ed 00:37:00 Yeah, this is a big issue at my faculty because, you know, we teach humanities, which is not specific. But, you know, my my take is always that when the economy is changing so fast, I'm not sure I would want to go to school for specific skills that might be worthless in six months. So, you know, this is my pitch for liberal arts and humanities. And, you know, I try to teach my students, you know, communication skills, thinking skills, and of course, knowledge about how the way the world works. And then that's how we create. We create people like Nina, and she can just go work at the UN. She can walk out of my classroom and go to the UN.

Greg Jorgensen 00:37:38 That's right. Well, anytime with AGI and Ed is going to be a good one.

Greg Jorgensen 00:37:41 Man. I spent I spent years in film school learning how to literally cut film with a razor blade. And then, during my last semester of my last year, they got in the, new avid non-linear digital editing, which basically made everything I learned instantly obsolete. So that was fun.

Ed 00:37:57 That's, that's that's basically how the world works.

Greg Jorgensen 00:38:00 Yeah. Pretty much. Well, that was cool. Thank you, Nina, for coming on again and chatting to, to editor. Thankfully, I am no longer a young person and don't have to deal with this stuff, but a lot of people do. And I think the youths of Thailand should be happy that someone like Nina is out there working with them for sure.

Ed 00:38:16 Thanks, Nina.

Greg Jorgensen 00:38:18 All right, let's do something we call. Would you rather wear one of us picks? Two contrasting situations tied to Thailand to debate and choose which one we'd prefer. And this week, editor, I got something for you. And it's not so much a Thailand versus something in the West thing, but it's two Thailand experiences and I kind of want to know which one you prefer.

Greg Jorgensen 00:38:38 And this is something that will probably appeal mostly to the tech nerds out there, like add an IR, and more specifically to the tech nerds who have been in Bangkok for at least I'd say ten years, maybe a little bit more than that. But Ed, what do you prefer? What was a more enjoyable experience for you? Browsing the old Mecca it Mecca of Pantai Plaza Back in the day, which had everything you could want, but it was ten, 12, 15 years ago, so everything was a bit janky and off, you know, not as cool and slick as things are now. Or would you prefer browsing Fortune Town right now, which is smaller and not as Mecca like, but it has much slicker, cooler products. What was a better experience for you, dude?

Ed 00:39:32 I mean, this question is 100% of my alley. This is something I could talk about extensively. We could do like we.

Greg Jorgensen 00:39:39 Do over beers many times.

Ed 00:39:41 Yeah, I could, I could do a whole show on on panty versus Fortune Town.

Ed 00:39:44 it's interesting because my, my, my first exposure was to pan tip like most people. And I thought it was awesome. You know, I just thought it was incredible. It's huge. It's multiple floors. Like, that's where we all got our DVDs in addition to computer stuff. Sure. but then I happened to move. I happened to move to Rashida, and I was pretty close to Fortune Town until Fortune Town County became my second home. So I, I shifted from from being a pancake guy to a fortune guy. And man, it's, it actually is a tough call there because.

Greg Jorgensen 00:40:20 Because back in the day, there was just something overwhelming about it. It was seven floors of nothing but tech geekery.

Ed 00:40:29 That's right. You almost can't, you know, you I mean, actually your your intro stated it exactly for fortune. For me, Fortune Town is actually it's actually kind of objectively better because I'm into, let's say, audio gear as well as computer stuff. And there was a little bit of audio.

Ed 00:40:49 There was like 1 or 2 audio shops in Penn tip but Fortune Towns, the, the audio file center for Bangkok.

Greg Jorgensen 00:40:56 Yeah. They've got some cool little shops back.

Ed 00:40:58 Yeah. And and then it also has more music shops, like guitar shops. I'm a failed guitar player, but I still like to go. I still like to go mess around. So I mean, kind of. And it actually has more. More camera shop. So. But like, here's the truth. Like emotionally like Pantic was such a, a wow experience. Like for five.

Greg Jorgensen 00:41:17 Years. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Ed 00:41:19 Like yeah. It's almost like it's like a Disney World, right?

Greg Jorgensen 00:41:22 But fortune is much more clinical and it's it's basically just a really long hallway. There's no wonder or wow about it. It's cool. I still love it. But fortunately, like panto.

Ed 00:41:33 Fortune is better suited to my specific needs. But, just maybe even for sentimental reasons, I have to say pan tip like early pan tip like the like pan tip like 2000 to 2010 is just untouchable.

Greg Jorgensen 00:41:48 Yeah, I agree, I'm there too. It was just something about it that was you. And it was so big because you, you could be walking around for an hour and you'd look around and go, I've never been here before. Where the hell. That's right. Yeah.

Ed 00:41:59 No you can't. No, it's it was a Disneyland of technology. It's untouchable.

Greg Jorgensen 00:42:05 Yeah. I prefer Pan Tip to. I love fortune, but it can't really compare to the emotional, impact that that pants have had. Yeah.

Ed 00:42:13 Now, we should clarify that, today, pant tip is kind of making a comeback. It's, it's it's much more modern and cleaned up, but it's it's somewhat of a shell. They're still rebuilding it. Most of the floors are still empty. So right now, like Fortune Town is just destroys it. It's way better.

Greg Jorgensen 00:42:31 Yeah. Oh, now. Yeah. It's not even not even right now. I haven't been to, like, ten years.

Ed 00:42:35 Yeah, but pantheon is making a comeback, so we'll see.

Ed 00:42:38 so I would say historically, sentimentally, nostalgically. I gotta go. Pen tip. Right. But today, I'm all about fortune.

Greg Jorgensen 00:42:46 Yeah. Nothing beats flipping through giant wallets of DVD movies and accidentally flipping into the porn section. Oops. What have I done?

Ed 00:42:53 Accidentally, of.

Greg Jorgensen 00:42:53 Course.

Ed 00:42:54 Right, right. All right. A final thanks to our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping in our never ending quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok podcast on social media Bangkok podcast. Com on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages. Unless, of course, you're an agent who sends endless pitch emails on behalf of a client, I am.

Greg Jorgensen 00:43:26 You can also listen to each episode on YouTube. Send us a voicemail through our website that will feature on the show. Find me on Bluesky VK Greg.

Greg Jorgensen 00:43:33 Thank you for listening everyone, and we'll see you back here next week for sure. Okay, cool.

Ed 00:43:40 Yeah.

Greg Jorgensen 00:43:41 On this episode, we talk with former guest and employment strategist about her role.