Phra Pandit Discusses What Buddhism Says About Sex [S8.E39]

Greg Jorgensen 00:00:05 On this episode, we talked to our friend Pandit about what the Buddhist teachings say about sex.

Ed 00:00:11 So if you've ever wondered what Buddhists are taught about the carnal arts, you'll love this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg Jorgensen 00:00:32 Sawa. And welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen. A Canadian who came to Bangkok in 2001. Pre monk that is already bald. Not a Christian and a big fan of loose baggy clothes. Now I just have to learn how to meditate.

Ed 00:00:47 I see what you did there.

Greg Jorgensen 00:00:49 Yeah.

Ed 00:00:50 And I met an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract over 25 years ago. Fell in love with the shocked look on my students faces when I tell them that a woman needs a prescription to get birth control pills in the States, so I never left.

Greg Jorgensen 00:01:05 Did that really happen? You talked about that?

Ed 00:01:07 it comes up in a couple different classes. you know, or I'm talking about, you know, I teach a lot of government policy stuff, so I talk about, you know, what freedom means and how people think of the U.S. as being very free in terms of certain rights, like freedom of speech.

Ed 00:01:22 But then in other ways we have like, regulation. So when I, when I tell them, like, you cannot, you cannot buy birth control pills at 711 in the US right there. They they don't get it. You know, they because they, they think America is free, you know, like the free world. We're all a bunch of hippies and you can do anything you want. I'm like, no, it's not like that at all.

Greg Jorgensen 00:01:42 It's a good branding exercise.

Ed 00:01:44 You know, we we we have the rule of law. You cannot. In a way, it's almost the opposite. You know.

Greg Jorgensen 00:01:49 Yeah, it is for that. But then in Thailand, you have freedom of press. You just can't write right about these things over here. Correct. Correct. What's selective?

Ed 00:01:58 Well, what? You know what? You know, just the term just free is very, very vague term. Yeah, yeah. All right. I want to give a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show.

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Greg Jorgensen 00:03:17 Alrighty then! On this episode, we welcome back our old friend Phra Pandit for a saucy conversation about what Buddhist teachings have to say about sex, lust, desire, and all of the dirty, dirty things that occupy the minds of wayward teens. Now, despite being atheists, both Ed and I nonetheless grew up amid a Judeo-Christian culture, which inevitably influenced our thoughts on the topic. Most Westerners know all about Catholic guilt, the hangups around virginity, the pearl clutching around, premarital sex, and so on and so on. But what we don't know a lot about is how Buddhist philosophy sees these things. So always up for a challenge. Our friend Prop Bandit joined me for a sit down to discuss it with me.

Greg Jorgensen 00:04:14 All right, we are back with our friend, Prop bandit. Good afternoon to you, sir.

Phra Pandit 00:04:20 Good afternoon.

Greg Jorgensen 00:04:21 Pleasure to see you again. I see you've got your very hot coffee as your favorite order and an empty glass of water, so I guess we're ready to go.

Phra Pandit 00:04:28 Yeah.

Greg Jorgensen 00:04:29 Yeah. Well, I wanted to come on, to to talk to you about something that's, interesting. And I think we've touched on it before in some previous interviews, but, it's a bit more prescient now because there's been a lot more, I think, anyway, a lot more scandals.

Phra Pandit 00:04:46 Greg wants to talk about sex.

Greg Jorgensen 00:04:48 Sex in the clergy. I'm dancing around it.

Phra Pandit 00:04:52 I'm just trying to find a way in.

Greg Jorgensen 00:04:56 I like Homer saying the word titmouse. but there's been a lot of sex scandals in the clergy, especially in the past year. There was that woman who had a ton of dirt on a ton of really powerful people and videos and photos and things like that. so I really wanted to know what the Buddhist canon says about sex, what's allowed, what's not, what you're allowed to do, what I'm allowed to do.

Greg Jorgensen 00:05:23 because I know what the Catholic one is and the Christian one is because I was brought up like that. But I'm curious about what what the Buddhist say about.

Phra Pandit 00:05:30 Yeah, I did. There haven't been a lot of scandals. You said there's a lot of. There was one big scandal that that went out and we went all across Thailand. But I'd say it's actually pretty rare that that you find these things.

Greg Jorgensen 00:05:45 It's either money or sex, isn't it? I guess any scandal is about money or sex.

Phra Pandit 00:05:48 Yeah. Again though, I mean, it's pretty rare, I think. I mean, these things aren't happening on a daily basis. No, In this particular case, there was a woman called golf who had seduced a bunch of senior monks, videotaped it, and then was extorting money out of them. And this was the scandal that went around. And apparently I think there was 14 monks or something, and nine of them were on camera, one of them in my own temple. Oh, yeah.

Phra Pandit 00:06:19 It was actually a really nice, serious, mindful, quiet. Pleasant, one of the really good monks. So, yeah, I guess anybody can be seduced, given the opportunity.

Greg Jorgensen 00:06:34 Well, men are pretty stupid. So no matter what, no matter what what they wear.

Phra Pandit 00:06:39 One of the issues is a lot of monks in Thailand are people whose parents were on drugs or got in prison or went abroad or something, and then they dumped the child into the monastery. Sometimes the child is the one that's not very bright, and the parents keep the bright ones and dump the not so bright one in the temple. This can happen. So for all these various reasons, kids get thrown into a monastery. They never chose it, they never wanted it. And then there isn't a way out for them. And then people are shocked if they have sex. Of course, like every human being is curious about this. And if you haven't chosen to go into the monastery and live a celibate life, of course you're going to be curious.

Phra Pandit 00:07:26 You're going to take an opportunity if it comes your way.

Greg Jorgensen 00:07:29 It's almost like you want to act out.

Phra Pandit 00:07:32 So often the monks, they go abroad, and these things can happen abroad because there's less cultural or societal expectation. People don't know what you can and you can't do abroad. So yeah, but I've got to say, it's pretty rare. It really is when you look at normal people and organizations. I mean, the scandals, the these things are relatively unusual, and it's very hard to keep secret. It's very hard to stay in a monastery and stay as a monk. If you're breaking the cardinal rule. Yeah, somebody's going to find out. And and so either something untoward happens and then the person is quietly disrobed, or usually they would if they're getting overpowered by these feelings and thoughts, they would usually disrobe anyway. Yeah. So I should say there are four monks. There are four rules that we can't break. Only four. And one of those four is we can't have sexual intercourse with any animal, living or dead.

Greg Jorgensen 00:08:39 Does that include humans?

Phra Pandit 00:08:41 Yes. Humans are an animal.

Greg Jorgensen 00:08:43 Interesting.

Phra Pandit 00:08:44 Okay.

Greg Jorgensen 00:08:44 Yes. Okay.

Phra Pandit 00:08:45 So if we break that rule, then technically you're no longer a monk. You don't even need to be disrobed. You're technically no longer a monk, and you can't ordain in this lifetime. Oh, okay. So it is a cardinal rule within the Buddhist monkhood that we can't have any kind of sexual intercourse. Now, that's a physical intercourse. There is a second level of, say, sexual relations of talking or touching that don't involve actual intercourse. I guess up to kissing or, and such, like heavy petting. Yeah. So these things are a secondary, not crime, secondary level of offence. And these need to be confessed to a senior monk. And you go through like a, a 20 day penance kind of thing, and then you're reinstated as a monk. Yeah. There was a curious thing that I met some people who were building a Protestant monastery in New Zealand, and everything was stipulated how we'd how wide the chairs were, how tall the backs were, how big the windows were.

Phra Pandit 00:10:02 And one of the things that was stipulated was the mesh in the confession box had to be a tight enough mesh that you couldn't squeeze your lip through for an illicit kiss.

Greg Jorgensen 00:10:13 I thought we were going to say yes, so you couldn't see how hard the woman was on the other side, giving the confession. And speaking of that, is is there any comparison between like the, the, the Christian church sexual scandals and the sexual scandals in the Buddhist clergy?

Phra Pandit 00:10:28 Well, in Christianity, certainly with the Catholics you weren't supposed to have. You're supposed to be celibate. And that's like, just not followed. Now they can be openly married, openly have a partner, and more latterly can be openly gay and gay, married and have a partner. So I think it's still in the Catholic Church. You not can't technically get married, but you would have a life partner that you live with. I mean, it's not followed, but there's a difference between, like, the clergy and the monkhood. So monks in monasteries are supposed to be fully celibate, I think, in all Christian sects.

Greg Jorgensen 00:11:10 Right.

Phra Pandit 00:11:11 Okay.

Greg Jorgensen 00:11:12 One of our listeners, our friend in Chiang Mai, he's part of, I don't know which sect of Christianity, but he is a priest and he's married to he's a Westerner and he's married to a Thai guy.

Phra Pandit 00:11:25 Right. So it's.

Greg Jorgensen 00:11:25 Pretty good.

Phra Pandit 00:11:26 Work. Yeah, it's pretty much open. But in Buddhism, no. If you're a monk, then you can be married. Like you can be married beforehand. Enter into a monastery for a few months or a few years. But obviously you can't have relations with your wife.

Greg Jorgensen 00:11:43 Okay. So you're allowed to do to be like, have sex before you're ordained. You're not considered dirty or tainted or.

Phra Pandit 00:11:50 There isn't no broken. That's why it's good talking with you. You ask the questions that.

Greg Jorgensen 00:11:56 I.

Phra Pandit 00:11:56 Bring it down. Yeah. no. so my former abbot, he. He died a few years ago, but he was married. He had two children. He ordained at 56 years old. Oh, wow. And he, his wife, still, they're still married, but he would call her his über tag means sponsor.

Phra Pandit 00:12:18 And I was asking, you know, I kept hearing this Uber tag, and her name was. And I was like, what? What is this? And he goes, oh, it's my wife. But, you know, because I'm a monk, I can't call her my wife. Oh that's fine. But obviously she's still family. They still have children together. And, just now the relationship has changed.

Greg Jorgensen 00:12:38 Well, I was I was reading this on Wikipedia, and, let me just read this paragraph really quickly here. It says the former vice president of the Buddhist society and chairman of the English Sangha Trust, Maurice Walsh wrote an essay called Buddhism and Sex, and it says there is, in the Buddhist view, nothing uniquely wicked about sexual offences or failings. Those inclined to develop a guilt complex about their sex life should realise that failure in this respect is neither more nor, on the other hand, less serious than failure to live up to any other precept. In point of fact, the most difficult precept of all is for nearly everybody to live up to is the fourth to refrain from all forms of wrong speech, which often includes uncharitable comments and other people's alleged sexual failings.

Greg Jorgensen 00:13:19 What, precisely, then, does the third precept imply for the ordinary lay Buddhist? it goes on in talking about it's not a commandment from God or Buddha or anyone else saying thou shalt not. There are no such commandments in Buddhism. It is an undertaking by you to yourself to do your best to observe a certain type of restraint, because you understand that it is a good thing to do. Pretty much.

Phra Pandit 00:13:40 So this is for laypeople, not for monks. So we're talking on a completely different level for laypeople who wish to. You can take five precepts, and in the five precepts you refrain from wrongful sexual conduct. Wrongful sexual conduct is never really officially defined, but there are a few instances where, examples arose and it was said this is wrongful sexual conduct. a lot of them don't really mesh well with today's value. Like, you shouldn't have relations with a woman who's been promised to another man that things like that. Right. Okay. And the way it's normally interpreted is you refrain from wrongful sexual conduct or harmful sexual conduct.

Phra Pandit 00:14:32 So if, if you're harming yourself or another or if you're cheating or lying, then you shouldn't be doing it. But otherwise, if it's between consenting adults and nobody's getting harmed, then you there, then that's fine in terms of the precept. That's for five precepts for laypeople. If you then go into a monastery for a retreat or something like that, you might take eight precepts. And in the eight precepts you refrain from all sexual activity which is called brahmacharya. So the way of the gods is the literal translation. And but then you do that for the period of time which you stipulate. This is for the period of time that you're in the monastery or you're on a retreat, or indeed, if you become a monk, you only take on those rules. Then the Brahmacharya, all full ups, abstinence. And for that period of time you can disrobe as a monk and then just go back to normal play standards. So there's no universal, God given right and wrong that you have to obey your entire life.

Phra Pandit 00:15:37 And one slip means you're down the whole into hell for the rest of eternity.

Greg Jorgensen 00:15:43 Yeah. What's the reasoning behind it, though? as far as I know, and I'm probably wrong, but from my understanding of my warped Christian upbringing, was that the reason the clergy are not allowed to marry is because Jesus wasn't married? Depending on if he'd read Dan Brown's books or not. But but that's that's why. So you're following in his footsteps. But what's the reasoning behind the Buddhist restriction on that?

Phra Pandit 00:16:06 The idea is that if you go out into the forest and you're living a holy life, you're being supported by the laypeople they're feeding you and very often housing you and providing for your needs in the expectation that you're following the holy life. So you can't then just follow the normal lay life, but expect laypeople to be supporting you so they have an expectation that you are there practicing the holy pursuit of enlightenment. And that's what you should be doing. And if that's not what you're doing, then you shouldn't be taking alms from people.

Greg Jorgensen 00:16:40 Okay, so it's not wrapped up in the whole rejection of desire or Physically, you know, like the whole thing about Buddhism is that you reject accumulation of wealth and desire and that leads to harm. Is that part of it? I mean, I can't think of anything more that I desire. I have a computer and a PlayStation.

Phra Pandit 00:16:58 Right.

Greg Jorgensen 00:16:58 So what else is there?

Phra Pandit 00:17:00 One is trying to get beyond desire. So if you're following desires, then your meditation is going to suffer. It's important to know that there are different kinds of desire. There is the desire for enlightenment. There is the desire to do good things. So there are what we might call aspirations that are good. You could say good desires, but yes, if your mind is getting clouded up with I want, then you're not going to reach the higher states of meditation. Interesting, which I would like to talk about in a future podcast, like what the actual attainments are. It's not just a belief system that we believe a set of stories and recite a set of scriptures.

Phra Pandit 00:17:41 There's an actual reason for the mystic path. There's a series of attainments that one can make in meditation. As you do this, it becomes absolutely clear and obvious that if your mind is shaken or caught up with, I want this and I don't want that, then you can't refine the mind into refined consciousness. Okay, so that's what we're doing when we're we're renouncing desire. We're trying to get hold of your own mind.

Greg Jorgensen 00:18:08 Interesting. Okay, I see that.

Phra Pandit 00:18:09 I notice a lot of boxers also, like, restrain themselves from, sexual relations or Olympiads before they go into competition for a week. There is something empowering about it, and there is something draining about actual intercourse.

Greg Jorgensen 00:18:27 I guess that's true. Yeah. You always hear like the when you grow up in Canada, the guys would swear off women for the month before the playoffs or they would not shave or something like that. So it's all about placing yourself in this cage of.

Phra Pandit 00:18:40 Yeah, you want to position your whole psyche to do this important undertaking.

Greg Jorgensen 00:18:45 Now among hockey team would be something to see. That would be pretty cool. I doubt there's anything specifically about that. Prohibiting that.

Phra Pandit 00:18:53 What about they would take photos? You know what I did, I am I, I shouldn't confess things on a public podcast, but I was at a persons house laypersons house. Or they have, like a monk's hut in the garden by the beach. And they had a mountain bike. And I haven't been on a bicycle for like 35 years. Wow. And I was like, do you mind if I just have a little go on your bike? Because we're not supposed to ride bicycles and, man, those mountain bikes are incredible. I mean, they really fly, and the beaches rock hard sand. And so I waited till 3:00 in the morning, and I went down to the beach. Zipping down must be like Gandalf the Orange. Oh, man.

Greg Jorgensen 00:19:34 I wish I could see that.

Phra Pandit 00:19:37 I was just like I wasn't quite hooping, but I was internally hooping.

Phra Pandit 00:19:40 Like, just the the like. The power felt like a flying to go on a bicycle. It's fantastic. But no, we do have to. We have a responsibility to act in a restrained manner, I think, and I think it's important that we honor that as well and not, you know, and keep rules.

Greg Jorgensen 00:19:58 Yeah. I think if that's the worst. You confessing? I think you're all right. How many times have I invited you out to parties or events and you're like, nope, sorry, there's alcohol there. I'm not allowed to come.

Phra Pandit 00:20:07 Here's the thing I want to throw back. Because people like yourself mentioning to me often about the transgressions that appear in the newspapers I want to throw it back on, is you people that transgress all the time. Sure. You you go out there in a big ceremony, in front of all your friends and all your family and all your wife's family, and you dress up and you make everyone else dress up, and you say to everybody in front of God himself.

Greg Jorgensen 00:20:32 I promise.

Phra Pandit 00:20:33 I swear I will never have any desire for any other woman again. And then what do you do five years later? You're having an affair. Ten years later, you're getting divorced. It's you people that can't keep vows, not monks. We keep our vows except for a very occasional, Somebody gets slipped up and gets caught. It's you people that that can't keep your vows.

Greg Jorgensen 00:20:55 I prefer you use the term godless heathen. You people is a bit offensive, but you're right. I mean, it's funny. Like we shouldn't say. Oh, these terrible monks broke the rules. It's more like, oh, these terrible monks acted like everyone else does.

Phra Pandit 00:21:09 And let's face it, I mean, like, having a bit of nookie is not like a great sin in front of God. You shouldn't do it if you're a monk. But for that reason, that you're taking alms off people in the expectation that you're practicing the holy life. So yes, we have a responsibility. But at the end of the day, when you mentioned some of these scandals with the, Christian churches, especially in Canada, these were like paedophile rings.

Phra Pandit 00:21:38 Yeah, these.

Greg Jorgensen 00:21:39 Are pure evil.

Phra Pandit 00:21:40 This is. This is a totally different ball game.

Greg Jorgensen 00:21:42 You're right, you're right. Yeah. I didn't mean to to us to imply that it was the same thing, because it's not. But, so they're not riding bicycles or anything, but.

Phra Pandit 00:21:51 One friend of mine, and he got home late one night, and his girlfriend was was waiting for him and jumped on him and screamed and shouted at him. And and he hadn't. He'd been playing pool. And he was saying to me, I was just playing pool. I'm just playing pool. I didn't touch anybody. And then I said, well, what about other nights? Did you. Have you been? He said, oh yeah, I'm always out banging. Yeah. I said, well they, you know, there you go then. Your wife's kind of right about it. so yeah. Don't point fingers at us for breaking rules. You're you're the ones that. I mean, that's actually what the marriage ceremony is about, right? You make so much investment, so much time, so much money, such a big show that that's supposed to try and keep.

Phra Pandit 00:22:37 Especially the man. Try and keep him on the straight and narrow and keep him loyal.

Greg Jorgensen 00:22:43 Yeah, well, let me tell you, there's a lot of ladies out there who are interested in bald, married, overweight parents. So I've got them lying up. Let's talk about the the the, the, the matches of the female monks, which you are not technically monks or. What's the proper terminology?

Phra Pandit 00:23:03 They're making.

Greg Jorgensen 00:23:04 Magi. So are there any specific guidelines for them around sexuality or. Or is it this?

Phra Pandit 00:23:10 Well, they're, Brahmacharya, which, the which is the precept to refrain from all sexual conduct. So they're following that same rule, in terms of breaking rules. They only have 8 or 10 precepts, although they often follow a lot more, in terms of etiquette. but I'd say the Metis are usually well behaved. Probably better behaved than monks anyway.

Greg Jorgensen 00:23:40 You never read any scandals about them in the paper or I haven't seen any reason.

Phra Pandit 00:23:43 Yeah, yeah. So. Yeah.

Greg Jorgensen 00:23:46 So when once say, say someone breaks the rule, a monk goes out and he has a few fun nights with a lady friend.

Phra Pandit 00:23:52 Oh my God.

Greg Jorgensen 00:23:53 Okay, well, what's what's the recourse? Is he done? Is that it?

Phra Pandit 00:23:56 If you have sexual intercourse, then you're no longer a monk. From that second onwards.

Greg Jorgensen 00:24:00 Forever. Until the next.

Phra Pandit 00:24:01 Life. Until the next lifetime. Interesting. However, you might not get caught. Well, so there was a case of a foreign monk up in the north of Thailand. and he's doing a lot of charity work. And then he once a month or so, he would disappear and he'd go. He'd say, I was going to do his visa or something. It turned out he was hooking up with his ex-girlfriend and having a few nights and then coming back, and he got caught, and he was very shamefaced, and he deeply, sincerely apologized. He had a great love of Buddhism, and he was extremely sorry that he'd let the team down let the side down. and he was disrobed and then carried on and still is a good Buddhist, still, meditator. so, I mean, these things happen from time to time.

Greg Jorgensen 00:24:50 You see, it's interesting that it's not seen as like this terrible, terrible thing. It's like just kind of more of a lapse in judgment and kind of shrug your shoulders and move on. But I think it's been built up to be this.

Phra Pandit 00:25:00 It's not a terrible thing morally in terms of the universe, but it is a terrible thing in terms of you have let down your entire, religion monastery friends, you've let down society. so for us, it's a really big deal.

Greg Jorgensen 00:25:15 Yeah, yeah. Okay. And in season three, I think we did a whole show on on abortion. And I don't remember those years and years ago, so I don't remember exactly what it was, but can we just touch on that real quickly? Just what does Buddhism say about laypeople and abortions.

Phra Pandit 00:25:30 So I mentioned there are four rules that we can't break. One of them is sexual intercourse. Another one is causing the death of a human being. So any action that we take, deliberate action that causes the death of a human being, we should not do.

Phra Pandit 00:25:46 And if we do, we're no longer a monk. It's one of these four rules we can't break. So monks will always be reluctant to talk about abortions. We can't cross that line. If I was to in any way say that abortions were okay. That you could interpret as being, causing the death of a human being, really? Which in terms of Buddhism includes in the womb.

Greg Jorgensen 00:26:09 I was going to say, how do you define human being?

Phra Pandit 00:26:11 So, it's not that monks would take a stand one way or another. It's just we won't talk about it. Interesting. Because then we might be accused of breaking this rule.

Greg Jorgensen 00:26:22 So you tell me to shut up. Stop asking the question.

Phra Pandit 00:26:24 Yeah. Pretty much.

Greg Jorgensen 00:26:25 Fair enough.

Phra Pandit 00:26:25 There are lots of, papers written by lay Buddhists about whether abortion is okay and or not. Okay.

Greg Jorgensen 00:26:32 Do my own.

Phra Pandit 00:26:32 Research. and I have my own views and opinions, But not publicly. Not publicly.

Greg Jorgensen 00:26:38 All right. We'll talk about them later over a beer.

Greg Jorgensen 00:26:39 Just kidding. You don't do that either. I've tried. I've tried to corrupt prop Bandit, but he won't do it. All right, well, as we're wrapping up here, is there any distinction made between heterosexual and homosexual relationships?

Phra Pandit 00:26:54 Not explicitly, no, but like, monks have a lot of rules in the way that we interact with women that we might not, that we wouldn't have in the way we interact with men. So I guess in that sense, there's a, not a bias, but there's a, you know, there's a difference between male and female. So, it is tricky for homosexual monks, because then they're in a strongly male environment, I guess. Yeah. And there was a case, actually, in England of a I lived in a monastery. There was about six monks, and one of them was gay and he wouldn't take we. There was a sauna in the monastery and he wouldn't take saunas. And not that he can't trust himself, but just out of respect that he says, well, you know, he's gay, so he's not going to, you know, put anybody else in an awkward situation and he'd take a sauna by himself, which is a shame, because he's a really nice guy.

Phra Pandit 00:27:57 And, you know, he was nice to hang out with. but so there are things we shouldn't. We. We monks have to be careful the way we interact with women. So we're not supposed to touch. Not that I like. Not that you want to be touched by men, either, but I remember that was the thing with Jack.

Greg Jorgensen 00:28:19 Yeah, that was the best burn ever. When you were on a TV show by a fairly fairly famous British comedian. And he. He met you and he said, I don't know, am I allowed to touch you and you?

Phra Pandit 00:28:29 So no, he said, I've been told I'm not allowed to touch you. Why is that.

Greg Jorgensen 00:28:34 So? Your delivery was so perfect. And you said, do you want to touch me?

Phra Pandit 00:28:39 You touch an elbow if you like. I mean.

Greg Jorgensen 00:28:42 It's so funny.

Phra Pandit 00:28:43 But they didn't show the light a bit. They cut it out. But as we were walking off, like five minutes later, I said to Jack.

Phra Pandit 00:28:48 Because it's so. Am I allowed to touch you? I think he said something like, not my penis or something. Something untoward. Which is probably why they cut it out. Yeah. So, yeah, we do have to be careful. We have a, like, a a cultural barrier between monks and women, which is respected and is really good. It's a good thing because putting temptation in people's way, it's not a good thing. yeah. So, yeah, we we're careful in the way that we interact with women. And I guess the same for the matches with men. They also expect men to keep a distance from them. Okay. Interesting. Yeah.

Greg Jorgensen 00:29:29 All right. Well, good talk. Thank you for coming on and shedding some light on the subject. I'm thankful I'm not a monk, but I'm glad I can live vicariously through you or the other way around. Yeah, we've got some interesting ideas for future shows with Prop Bandit, which we've just been discussing, so that'll be fun.

Greg Jorgensen 00:29:46 And, stay tuned for more from you. Thanks for coming on. Cool.

Ed 00:29:58 Dude. Great interview. But why wasn't I there?

Greg Jorgensen 00:30:01 Well, this happened sort of short notice. It was like. Like the day before I was working from home and Prop Bandit was in the area, and I had something I wanted to give him. So he said, why don't I come by? And I said, okay, while you're here, why don't we do a podcast? So we recorded it in like the middle of the day at lunchtime.

Ed 00:30:18 Dude, I would have had a lot of pertinent questions like, I don't think you guys talk. You guys didn't talk about porn, did you? No.

Greg Jorgensen 00:30:24 Is it. It's always a masturbation. We gotta get Ed here. He is the expert of it.

Ed 00:30:29 He's he's the. He's the masturbation expert or. no, he's the pawn expert. Which one?

Greg Jorgensen 00:30:33 But we butt prop handed as he does all the time. When him and I do an interview solo, he always sort of side like, very slyly says, you know, I'd really like to sit down with Eddie more, because basically he's got more intelligent questions than you do.

Ed 00:30:50 That's funny.

Greg Jorgensen 00:30:50 True.

Ed 00:30:50 Well, I would have loved to have been there. I mean, this actually, you know, on all the stuff with him. I, I, I like to get into it, so I'm, I'm, I'm no Buddhist expert that that's for sure. But because I teach this intro to philosophy and religion, I know, you know, I have about what, three, three lectures of Buddhist stuff. So I've got this foundation which would give me, fodder for questions to, to ask me.

Greg Jorgensen 00:31:15 Right, right. I'm sorry, I apologize. Next time, we will schedule our sex talks well ahead. Yeah, really? But one one thing that I did take away from this is I like what sort of the philosophy that has come up in our discussions a lot about Buddhism, which is it's very much a you do you all do. Me and let's just leave each other alone kind of thing. And that that seems to extend into the realm of sex as well, because besides some pretty base level rules, there's not really a whole lot of faffing around and newly built around it.

Ed 00:31:47 Right. Well, the interesting thing is that his overall attitude seemed seemed to actually fit the the image of Buddhism in the West is that it's kind of chill, you know? My, my my joke. you know, I have a buddy who, like, just one of our weird things is we, we brainstormed names for, bands, you know? Oh, I love doing that. Yeah. So one of my names for a band is hardcore Buddhist. Oh, that's good, because at least in the West, that's that's that's ironic. Or like, a hardcore Buddhist. It doesn't make sense, you know, but like, like you're going to be really serious about being chill.

Greg Jorgensen 00:32:24 It's like.

Ed 00:32:25 Like I'm going to be so nice. I'm going to be ridiculously nice.

Greg Jorgensen 00:32:28 It's like the fish called Wanda when she said, what are you doing? She said, I'm meditating. The Buddhist monks used to use it before they went into battle.

Ed 00:32:36 That's great. yeah. So, he, like his whole attitude, was kind of the the chill, hippie monk hippie Buddhism thing.

Ed 00:32:45 But I think historically, the Buddhism has been a lot like other religions where, you know, it can be it can be very strict and paternal and super conservative about this stuff. But I think that's just not where it's at today. Like today. It just doesn't have that, that, that angle. And it's just, it's, it's is chill.

Greg Jorgensen 00:33:04 Right, right. And I think a lot of that, that conservatism and uprightness comes from cultural angles rather in, in eastern cultures and religions rather than from Buddhism, whereas in the, the West, it strikes me that a lot of these, this, stick up the assonance comes directly from religion and less around the culture. I think it's a little bit back.

Ed 00:33:24 No, I think I think you're right. I think you're right, especially in modern times. But, you know, if you, you know, just the basic stuff. I know there's still conservative stuff in original Buddhism, you know, you know, I, I, you know, I think the, the, you know, there are five prohibitions and one of them, it says something like improper sex is a sin.

Ed 00:33:42 So that that's one of the five prohibitions. so it's just a question of how it gets interpreted. So you, you know, I don't think Buddhism necessarily like in its original form is super chill necessarily. I do think it's how it gets interpreted over time.

Greg Jorgensen 00:33:58 Sure. But I think in my, my experience with Catholicism, which is, which is noy is you know, you you can't think about lust otherwise. That's a scene you have. Oh, sure. You know, you can't do this. You can't do that. You have to go to confess.

Ed 00:34:10 And yeah, you're right. I mean, I, I yeah, I, I mean, you're right that, I would just say that the, I mean, clearly like, Judeo like all the, like whether it's, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, I think it's easier to interpret them in a very conservative way than it is Buddhism. You know, There's more things. There's more things you can land on. More statements in the Bible.

Ed 00:34:32 More. It's kind of a little bit easier to be extreme, but, I think I think, I think at different times and places there's been actually have been hardcore Buddhists. But luckily today, especially in Thailand, they're they're pretty chill.

Greg Jorgensen 00:34:46 You know, the favorite band name that my friend and I came up with back in the day was Diarrhea Mardi Gras, which I loved.

Ed 00:34:53 I like that one I would have to put down to put that on the list.

Greg Jorgensen 00:34:56 Well, many thanks to Prop Bandit for joining us once again to come on the show. Always a pleasure to sit down with him and chat, of course. And we, we we are thinking of a couple of pretty interesting projects to do with him later this year, which will be kind of fun, so stick around for more from Prop Handed. And thanks again, sir. All right, let's do some love, loathe, or live with where one of us picks a particular aspect of living in Bangkok, which we discussed to decide if it's something that we love about living here, loathe about living here, or have come to accept as something that we just have to learn to live with no matter how we feel about it.

Greg Jorgensen 00:35:26 And this week, weekend, it's over to you.

Ed 00:35:29 All right, dude, I got kind of a general question for you. It's a little bit vague, but I think it might make sense. after you've lived here for a while or even from visiting, you start to realize that there's all kinds of Thai fruits and vegetables that I don't want to say. They don't exist in the States or in the West or in Canada, but but they're just rare or weird. But whereas Thai people and Thai people are eating them all the time. Right. Okay. so let's just set set fruit aside for a second. So I, I want to know, do you eat any Thai vegetables that are not common in the States? Like, are you like, how do you react to like, quote like quote unquote rare or weird Asian or Thai vegetables, like stuff like bamboo shoots. And I don't know what else would be good examples like interesting. Just like stuff like banana blossom or like lotus stems. Morning glory.

Ed 00:36:27 You know, obviously we. Oh. You do. Okay. Obviously, we have Morning Glory back home, but I don't remember seeing it that much. I feel like Morning Glory is not I don't I mean, sure, I had it back home, but it's a quite common tie thing.

Greg Jorgensen 00:36:42 I think that's an interesting question. And, I, I certainly eat a lot of vegetables, but they're pretty traditional Western style vegetables. That being said, whenever I get a chance to eat bamboo or banana leaf salad or something like that. Yeah, you're totally down for it. Yeah, I like it.

Ed 00:36:58 You know, it's funny, the reason I brought this up is I was talking to a buddy of mine, and he was asking me all these questions about being a vegetarian, and he was asking me, you know, do I eat, you know, Thai vegetarian food? And I said, yes. But then I did kind of realize that I tend to eat Western vegetables even though I'm here.

Ed 00:37:15 So I, you know, you know, I like, for example, I'm not that into the like, Thai morning glory dishes. I'm not just not that into it. and I just like like you. I realize that I'm eating. I'm eating carrots and lettuce and bell peppers. And because they have, they have all. They have all the same vegetables we have. And it's I'm sure I'm sure they would think of them as Thai. So I'm not talking about specifically imported things. So I'm sure these things do exist in Thailand. But then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that back home we don't eat that much and that like, basically I suck. Like, I think I, I don't venture out into the world of, of like type Thai produce, but I don't feel like I'm a hater. I just, I just avoid it. I just avoid it.

Greg Jorgensen 00:37:59 Same, same. I love it, but I, I hardly ever eat it just because it's not in my little bubble.

Greg Jorgensen 00:38:04 It's not something I search out for and I don't know how to cook it myself.

Ed 00:38:08 Right, right right right.

Greg Jorgensen 00:38:09 And when I do order stuff, I order stuff that I like to stick with. But if it's put in front of me. Yeah, I love eating it.

Ed 00:38:15 All right, I guess we're both. I guess we're both to live with that.

Greg Jorgensen 00:38:17 Live with. Yeah, yeah.

Ed 00:38:20 All right. Our final thanks to our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling, knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok Podcast on social media, Bangkok Podcast on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages. Unless, of course, you're an agent who sends endless pitch emails on behalf of a client.

Greg Jorgensen 00:38:49 Yes, yes, and you can also listen to each episode on YouTube.

Greg Jorgensen 00:38:52 Send us a voicemail through our website that we'll feature on the show. Hit me up on blue Sky BK. Greg. Thank you for listening, everyone, and we'll see you back here next week for sure.