May 12, 2026
An Expert Spills the Beans on Thailand's Coffee Industry [S8.E43]
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Greg begins his interview with coffee fan, aficionado and expert Noon by exploring her background as the former president of the Specialty Coffee Association of Thailand and her current role managing Lamarzocco, the high-end coffee machine retailer.
Noon explains her deep dive into coffee quality and traces the rapid evolution of the Thai coffee industry over the past fifteen years. She points out that Thailand is highly unique because it both produces and consumes its own coffee, which creates incredibly short communication lines between rural farmers and urban cafe owners. Next, Noon breaks down the agricultural history, explaining how early royal projects replaced opium crops with disease-resistant but less flavorful hybrid beans, prompting modern farmers to pivot toward higher-quality varieties.
The conversation then shifts to the different historical waves of coffee culture. Noon describes the progression from basic instant coffee to the cafe culture popularized by major chains, followed by the artisanal third wave, and finally the current fourth wave that focuses heavily on the science and exact consistency of brewing. She notes that high-end machines are crucial for maintaining this modern standard.
Following the interview, Ed and Greg discuss Noon's insights. Ed admits that he is relatively new to the coffee scene and shares his mild frustration with overly expensive, pretentious coffee shops. Greg agrees, reflecting on his own habits and acknowledging that while massive chains offer reliable consistency, they simply cannot match the nuanced quality and dynamic energy of the booming specialty coffee market in Thailand. But that’s the great thing about coffee - it’s a drink that can fit into almost any social or cultural situation.
Greg 00:00:05 On this episode, we talked to coffee aficionado noon about Thailand's growing coffee industry.
Ed 00:00:11 So if you've ever felt lame buying coffee in Starbucks or hunted for ages trying to find the perfect brew at a high end roaster, you'll dig this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.
Greg 00:00:36 Sawa. And welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who had a conversation with a work colleague today and learned that she was one year old when I first came to Thailand.
Ed 00:00:50 Welcome to my world. Many of my students, actually all of my current students were were not born when I first came to Thailand. By far.
Greg 00:01:00 It was sobering.
Ed 00:01:02 Yes. For sure. And I met with an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract over 25 years ago, fell in love with insisting on speaking tied to Thai people while they insist on speaking English with me. So I never left. Dude, it just happened to me in Starbucks. I know this is kind of an old an old thing, but it just happened to me again where I was in Starbucks.
Ed 00:01:26 And when, you know, I want to use Thai. And then the the woman behind the counter, obviously, I guess you want to show me she speaks English or the it's pretty obvious that her English is going better than my Thai. So we just had an entire conversation where she's speaking English and I'm speaking Thai the whole time.
Greg 00:01:42 Yeah, it's so funny. I still love the guy. The train museum that I saw, and I started speaking Thai with him, and after a while he kind of looks at me gently and goes, let's switch to English.
Ed 00:01:53 Well, I like it when I like it when both people just don't acknowledge that you're speaking different, that I'm speaking her language. She's speaking mine. I like when we just both just roll with it.
Greg 00:02:06 It's a great open man. You should just look at her and say. Why don't we switch to the most common language of love? There you go.
Ed 00:02:13 All right. On that note, we want to give you big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show.
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Greg 00:03:17 Right? And don't forget, if you listen to us on Spotify, you can now hear all of our bonus shows there as well.
Greg 00:03:22 If you're a patron, simply link your Patreon account to your Spotify account and add our new feed titled Bangkok Podcast Badass Patrons, only to hear the regular and bonus shows in the same place. All right. On this episode, we chat with a woman named noon, former president and now an honorable advisor of the Specialty Coffee Association of Thailand, which, according to its website, works to advance the Thai coffee industry through standards, education and competitions. Noon is also the managing director of la masako, Thailand. And if you don't know that brand, imagine if Ferrari partnered with Rolex to build coffee machines and you'll be on the right track. They are super, super high end stuff. Oh, cool. So Nuno and I sat down a while ago to talk about coffee culture in general, why the Thai coffee industry is so unique, and why getting a cup of Joe at Starbucks isn't necessarily as bad as it's made out to be. So here is my very interesting conversation with my coffee friend. Noon. All right.
Greg 00:04:28 Well, we are sitting here in a, fittingly or actually probably not very fittingly, considering that we're talking to we're sitting in a Starbucks, so you might hear some little frothing and noise in the background, but that's okay. I'm sitting here with noone, who is the former president of the Specialty Coffee Association of Thailand, current honorary advisor. You've got a lot of titles. And the MD of la masako, Thailand, which is a Very luxe coffee machine company and we're going to talk about that. So something that is really exciting for me because I'm a huge fan of coffee, I think a lot of our listeners are huge fans of coffee, and I've always liked coffee, and it's such a weird drink because it can be shitty coffee and you can just drink it for the effect of the caffeine, or it can be a whole ritual with really high end stuff. So tell us a little bit about yourself, Newton. How did you come into the coffee game? And we'll start there.
Noon 00:05:27 Thank you for having me.
Noon 00:05:29 I'm excited to share this because I know that many of your, I would say listeners are not in coffee industry more like a food and beverage. Some of some of them, but but not in coffee industry. So when I say coffee industry, my background is not coffee as well. I graduated in 2010 and then I joined aerospace industry and then I moved to ExxonMobil, which is oil and gas, and then I moved to coffee. But my coffee journey starts since 2011 and 2011. it became my serious hobby at a time. And I'm a nerd. And coffee work? Yeah, I'm a nerd, so I'm a nerd of everything. Every topic. Really. So if I'm interested in something, I go deep. So I see, I look up all the information, research and stuff. So when I find myself into coffee, I just go deep. Right. Yeah. And then at the time I was really focused on quality. That how I started because my first job was quality was in quality department in aerospace.
Greg 00:06:39 I hope you did a good job because that's what I want when I'm flying on an airplane is quality.
Noon 00:06:42 Well, I can tell you a little bit more about that. So good. But, yeah. So I really focus on quality and what the quality means Is really much to do in the cup. Cup quality and how we test it. Then that's what people perceive. And then when you when I look into more on how it's made a good test profile is we have to trace back to the origin and what the coffee is actually interesting because it's other than, you know, the, the really information that everybody knows that is the second biggest trade in the world after the oil and stuff, but especially coffee or coffee in general. There's so many people and players that have touch on it along the supply chain. Like many, many people, we are talking about the logistic and stuff as well. So what I'm saying is to actually have good quality coffee every single party in the coffee chain, the main job is to Preserve the quality from the origin until to the coffee drinker.
Greg 00:07:55 Right. You and you talked. You mentioned earlier when we were talking about consistency. And it seems like that's why. You mean like like every step of the supply chain needs to be consistent and and focused on quality.
Noon 00:08:06 Yeah. It really have to be very intentional. Yeah. So even though some can be when you say low quality coffee. Yeah. Low quality coffee also has its place. But then when the quality gets sorted or the how how the quality being evaluated. So I start as that. And then it took me to coffee origin and I'm Thai. So I see more of the coffee origin in Thailand. And I saw like I was like a kid, you know, so so I see my I get so sparkling and see like there's like a lot of potential here. Yeah. And we are talking about 2011. So when I see that that we can progress in terms of quality to match with not even match, but create our own terms of quality in in Thai coffee that that's got me going.
Noon 00:09:07 and also like to when I said to to benchmark with other origin, that's also because when I travel, I get to experience more on the other countries that more developed in consumption. Right. And for example, like in Germany or in UK or Australia, they they are really developed in consumption since, I don't know, 30 years. So when I travel, I get to see that that can happen in Thailand too. So I'm trying to see how Thailand can progress in that sense.
Greg 00:09:46 Yeah. So so would you say that Thailand's coffee scene or coffee industry is fairly immature compared to other countries.
Noon 00:09:53 At the moment? No, this is really interesting. I love that question. So our growth rate is crazy. So what I mentioned about the the development in origin, that was 2011 and that is only like 15 years ago. But everything happened so fast. Like right now I can tell. I can say that Thailand is actually developed both production and consumption, and we are the only country as a producing country that have a very developed cafes and consumption in Thailand.
Noon 00:10:28 And we progress so well. And is that's actually a factor that contribute to that actually. Because firstly it's there was a time when when, you know, like because you were here, quite some time. So there's a lot of people that sent their Children to study overseas?
Greg 00:10:47 Sure. Yeah.
Noon 00:10:48 Yeah. And usually it's Australia. UK, New Zealand.
Greg 00:10:53 Places with long histories of coffee. Yes. Yeah.
Noon 00:10:56 So what day brought back was a lot of things. And including this cafe culture.
Greg 00:11:05 Yeah.
Noon 00:11:05 So that's one of the factors that contribute to it. But the growth rate of the production side is mainly because our infrastructure in Thailand, like right now we're sitting here in Satun in the middle of Bangkok. If you want to go to Coffee Farm, we can be there in four hours. This is not like any other origin country.
Greg 00:11:31 That's interesting because we talk about this a lot on the podcast and one of the major appeals of Thailand. And one of the things, especially about Bangkok that's so cool is that it's got all of the high end Western conveniences, but it's also got the funky Asian ness.
Greg 00:11:45 And if you get in a car and drive an hour, you're in the middle of rice fields and, and jungle, you know. So it's a really unique ecosystem for this type of business to exist, I think. Yeah.
Noon 00:11:56 Yeah. You put it just so nice, beautifully, because I see it as a beautiful chaos.
Greg 00:12:02 Right, right. But like in in in in in in Berlin you have great coffee. But but you can't drive an hour and be in a jungle or a coffee plantation.
Noon 00:12:13 No, not at all. You're in France, and this is. I think Thailand is really charming in that. In that way you you have we have mountain, we have the beautiful beach. We have everything literally. So what I'm saying is the, the God rate that's is this high. And we develop so fast, so quickly. It's because the communication is very short, between people who are actually doing, serving coffee, roasting coffee. And they don't they can reflect the cup profile to the farmer very quickly.
Greg 00:12:45 You know what it's like. Thailand is apple because Apple computers, they make the hardware, they make the software, they make the chips. And it's all vertically integrated and it's in the same ecosystem. It's very well. Yeah.
Noon 00:12:56 And this is and you are so. Right. because Thailand by far is the most and I travel to many other origin countries as well, like even our neighbors country, right in, in Indonesia, the famous one in, in our neighbor country or even in Kenya, Tanzania, Colombia, Brazil, even Brazil. Seriously, it's impossible for you to actually get to the farm from the city within a day. No, it took me like 38 hours.
Greg 00:13:29 Oh my God.
Noon 00:13:29 Actually, because it's huge. It's massive. Even in Colombia, that seems like it's not as as big. But still the the road is not that.
Greg 00:13:39 Infrastructure is not there. Yeah.
Noon 00:13:40 The infrastructure is not that great. So what happened is the farmer and, the, the the farmer and the business owner.
Noon 00:13:52 Like the cafe owner, there's actually the communication is lacking. So coffee drinker, we see it as a drink farmer. They see it as a plant. Right. So they don't really see what we are talking about. A cup profile and think. And with that long communication or some. And even now in many in origin country, they are so advanced as well that the farmer know how to cup do the cupping. Cupping is the sensory evaluation, the quality evaluation of coffee. So they can actually evaluate their coffee at the farm. But then if you don't get a chance to actually cup together, do the cupping together, evaluate the coffee at the same time.
Greg 00:14:36 So there's a disconnect between the farmers and the vendors and the producers. Yeah.
Noon 00:14:40 So you don't really speak in the same language. So it's okay, but it's slower down the progression. But in Thailand it's super easy. Like coffee drinker, cafe owner, roaster, they just fly to the origin and do the cupping together and select a lot.
Greg 00:14:57 This reminds me a year ago, you probably still find this online. Actually on YouTube there was a really interesting documentary about a French documentary and this French TV crew flew to, I think it was Guyana. No, not Guyana, some some chocolate producing country. And they went to interview the people who harvest the chocolate, the cocoa pods, and they had never tasted chocolate and they gave them the chocolate. And the guys were like, oh my God, is this what we're making? And one of the funny lines was one of the guys said, this is why those white people are so strong and healthy. But that's a really interesting idea that the communication is what really helped Thailand's coffee industry evolve and grow and mature. Yeah. Interesting. Where? Where do Thai coffee beans sit in in relation to the world? Are they really high quality? Are they different or unique in any way?
Noon 00:15:49 Well, this is a thing about, Thailand. Is the farmer actually more advanced this day? The younger generation go back home to actually produce coffee.
Noon 00:16:02 Processing coffee is great, but what we are sitting in the world stage internationally is not yet that defined. And this is a job as well. When we, we mean specialty coffee Association of Thailand, we actually really moving, trying to shape that direction of where it's going to sit, how the we're going to know about Thai coffee because firstly we are not exporting don't export.
Greg 00:16:34 Thailand exports.
Noon 00:16:35 Very little. Oh and there's reason behind that because in Thailand we consume 90,000 tonnes a year. We produce arabica coffee 15,000.
Greg 00:16:50 Oh, so it's a net importer? Yeah. Oh.
Noon 00:16:53 So what we are drinking, I don't think.
Greg 00:16:57 Sorry. My my my low quality trash coffee at Starbucks.
Noon 00:17:01 Yeah. So let's we can actually forget about it like that. We can export. And why we are not increasing in terms of production. Because firstly, our geographically is not that feasible to actually grow good quality coffee trees. We have very limited land that actually very good for the coffee tree. and Thailand we our competitive advantage has to come from quality because otherwise if you're trying to do in one on quantity, you cannot compete with the neighbor Country's okay.
Greg 00:17:38 Like Indonesia and things like that. Yeah.
Noon 00:17:39 Like our, like, club country. They are producing coffee and we never be able to match their labor costs.
Greg 00:17:47 I do love lush and coffee. It's real good. Yeah.
Noon 00:17:50 That's why. That's why we have to find our own identity and the meaning of Thai coffee.
Greg 00:17:57 Okay, okay.
Noon 00:17:57 So when we talk about, like, where we are sitting in the world right now, it's a people get more knowledge about Thai coffee because we're trying to communicate more in terms of having testing here and there in other countries, in other regions, in other region. But mostly it's not that yet defined. I would say.
Greg 00:18:21 Interesting. So what is the Specialty Coffee Association doing to change that?
Noon 00:18:27 We actually focus more right now. It's about the variety because for the past ten years we have been doing for in terms of processing, because in terms of variety, varietal copyright is really something that very specific. What we had for the past ten years was we looked at our current varieties in Thailand and is not that great.
Noon 00:18:52 And there's a reason for that too, because we are so young as a producing country, the coffee actually being planted to get rid of the opium.
Greg 00:19:03 Sure. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah, yeah. Famously, if you're if you're not familiar listeners like your many decades ago, opium was one of the biggest products coming out of the northern Thailand of the Golden Triangle. But a lot of royal initiatives and other initiatives sort of worked to replace opium with coffee as a as a crop. Yes.
Noon 00:19:20 And at a time it was to solve the problem. So the variety had to be productive economically and also more sustainably in terms of it has to be very resistant to very resistant, very productive. So the variety that was chosen is like Katie Moore. The Katie Moore is a hybrid between Arabica and Robusta.
Greg 00:19:44 Oh, I never even heard that before.
Noon 00:19:46 Yeah, it's a hybrid. Now we have a lot of great hybrid. and there are also some, some, some other variety. A lot actually, that because it was in the Royal project and when they gave away the seedling, it just mix and everything.
Noon 00:20:01 So in Thailand, when you go to coffee farm, every coffee tree are just like, mix.
Greg 00:20:05 Like a mud, a mud coffee tree.
Noon 00:20:07 It's a mix. And what we did on only thing that we could do at a time ten years ago was to improve the processing, how to actually develop the cut more to taste better.
Greg 00:20:21 Okay. Okay.
Noon 00:20:22 And we can achieve that. Right? Right now, for the past two years, I believe we really focus on variety. Okay. So like now, Farmer rich saddle. You're great. Your life is great. Now it has to come to the point where we need to invest in in in variety.
Greg 00:20:44 So you're getting rid of the mud trees. And.
Noon 00:20:46 Yeah, because this is really something that the farmer really reluctant to do it. And when I said invest in that sense, it's not that it's not that we're going to let them by the seedling. It's not like that. But to plant a new coffee trees, you have to wait three years until you can do the first harvest.
Noon 00:21:03 So that's mean your production, your income going to be less for three years right now. Actually, like a lot of you're going to find many at a more and more advanced farmer. Advanced means they are more dynamic. They are really willing to change. They want to try everything. And sometimes it can be good, very, very good. They want to try a new variety and think that sometimes it can be too quick. This is the downside of of too fast or progress, right? Because they are willing to do and sacrifice everything without really having enough data to support a decision so they can plant the geisha variety, which is very fragile, like it's a nice, beautiful lady, but a lot of, like any beautiful lady is a high maintenance.
Greg 00:21:54 Yeah. So glad you said it.
Noon 00:21:57 So that's geisha, Okay, so also means that geisha is not always going to survive in every part of your village, you know? So this is something that we need to look into. And that's why it takes longer than develop the processing.
Greg 00:22:17 And plus you're also dealing with people, right? Personalities and humans. And I imagine not everyone is willing to, to to give up some short term gains. You're like come on do it for the global coffee industry. And they're like, I don't really care about the global coffee. I have to put my kids to school, right? I need to make money.
Noon 00:22:35 So and so. That's why I'm saying that. Okay. Now the processing part is great. Farmers in Thailand, they are not poor. Coffee farmer here is rich. Actually they are.
Greg 00:22:45 I thought all the durian farmers were rich. I didn't think about coffee.
Noon 00:22:49 and why is that? Is because Thai coffee. It's quite expensive. But why? I'm saying it's expensive. It's. I'm not. I don't want Thai coffee to be cheaper. My goal, our goal, actually, is to make the quality high enough to justify the price.
Greg 00:23:08 Are you seeing young Thais adopt coffee culture more, or is it? Is it? Is that a trend you're able to observe? Is it older? Thais is young.
Greg 00:23:17 Thais is. How does it.
Noon 00:23:19 Change? I can actually say that from Gen X wise and even our for this day. Yeah. The growth it's so much it's actually if we we see that the coffee culture change, developed so much when, the Gen Y like me and the the beginning of Gen Y and big, like the Gen X, Gen Y actually is willing to spend more on the value. And especially coffee is about value the value in terms of the how they feel, how they see what they, what the the things that are using the things that are eating, drinking are valuable or not that have a perceived value. So especially coffee land that perfectly in terms of sustainability experience, emotional products. you have a ratio there. You can you have a functional from it.
Greg 00:24:17 And I think it dovetails nicely to is sort of Thailand's rising or growing middle class with a little bit more disposable income. And the, the, the hip factor, the Instagram factor, all of these things combined. And coffee is is such a really flexible and dynamic product that it can kind of fill any of that, any of those niches.
Noon 00:24:38 That's very true. And coffee is super flexible, even can match with any other industry as well.
Greg 00:24:44 I mean, it kind of in North America anyway, in Western culture there. It started with friends, the TV show in 1994, I think it first came on.
Noon 00:24:53 Oh, I watch every episode.
Greg 00:24:54 Me too is my guilty pleasure, I love it. I will defend Ross to the end of time. It was. He was one of the best physical comedians in that show. Bit of a doofus. But anyway, I mean, that really kick started the cafe culture in North America. Or maybe re kick started it, I don't know. But before that, it didn't really exist. And then suddenly it was really cool to go and hang out in, in cafes. And I don't think that ever really went away. Just sort of evolved, slashed, mutated. And what we were talking about earlier was there's there's two ways to look at coffee. It's it's it's functional or emotional and functional would be sort of like I, I don't really care what it tastes like.
Greg 00:25:33 I just need this can of iced coffee from 7-Eleven to, to to swig before my bike ride, which is what I do so I don't get a headache from caffeine withdrawal later in the day. it's just quick down and dirty. Or it can be emotional where you really want to experience it. You want to know and understand where the beans come from and the process that it takes to get from that to the cup of brown liquid into your cup. So it's it's a very flexible dynamic.
Noon 00:25:59 Very, very the first wave was that functional drink. So we need a hit in the morning just to wake us up. That's the first wave. So that's the instant coffee as convenient as possible. Fast quick. Then the second wave came. And this is the place where we're sitting here, the Starbucks. Yeah, Starbucks changed that to have this cafe culture a little bit like that.
Greg 00:26:24 And I don't think I mean, I come to Starbucks 50% for the coffee, which is all right. But I come here because I know exactly what I'm going to get.
Greg 00:26:31 Comfy chairs are comfortable. It's air conditioned. Yes, I know the menu. I know the service is going to be good. The staff are trained well.
Noon 00:26:37 This is a thing because when people are like when, when, when when we met as well, when people sees that I'm a coffee person, they'll be like, oh no, she doesn't drink Starbucks. Starbucks. Like she kind of hates it. It's not true. I actually really like what Starbucks has done for for coffee. It's even doing. I love their marketing. They are my marketing guru really. Even right now they struggle in terms of global business. I still keep really close eyes on on how they're going to make decisions because they are huge, the massive and what the next move that they're going to do is really interesting. And they always make a move even desperately, but they survive. So this is really, they're super smart. And the operational level is like, damn, they're so good at operational system. so Starbuck is actually the second wave.
Noon 00:27:31 And what I'm saying is second wave. If people actually come to hang out in cafes. Okay. They introduce the third place. Other than Home Office, they introduce the third place.
Greg 00:27:43 Third place theory. That's a big one. Yeah.
Noon 00:27:45 So when they come to the third place and when people come back, just want to get out and want to hang out, but they don't know where to go. So the end of the day we don't go to bar, go to.
Greg 00:27:53 Starbucks. My million dollar idea is to stand outside a Starbucks with a with a with a box selling duvets and blankets. Because especially when just before university exams, because Starbucks are full of university students in front of their computers who sit here for six hours, but they're freezing cold, so they need to cover up.
Noon 00:28:11 Yes. And also when this is really interesting, what you just said that matches perfectly. The thing is Starbucks. Are they actually selling coffee or are they selling space.
Greg 00:28:21 The experience or are they selling the comfortable chairs? Yeah, I don't know.
Greg 00:28:25 Like I said, I think it's I think it's a little bit of both. Yes.
Noon 00:28:28 So, so when, when we talk about that, that's what I'm saying about whether, when people ask me if cafe is all this specialty cafe going to survive, it's not like that. It's like it's really much a what are we selling? What are they selling? It's a totally different, distinctive group.
Greg 00:28:45 You know, one of my favorite, small coffee shops was in, Central World. I used to go to on the fifth floor and it was called Alto Roasters. And I don't know what it was, but their coffee, I thought, was really good. Really good.
Noon 00:28:57 They actually have been around in coffee industry very a long time. Really. Yes. Okay. I think since 2014 or something at least. Yeah. Wow. And why I bring that up. Is that because of the competition in cafes? Right. So anyone who can stay and survive for these long and still very progressive, they're good.
Greg 00:29:20 You got to do something. They got to be doing something right.
Noon 00:29:22 Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Greg 00:29:24 What were you saying earlier about the process of coffee is interesting to you. And I've told this story on the podcast before, but in Central World, when I was back at pagoda, there was there was a coffee shop we used to go to, and there was Starbucks. And then next to it was a Thai coffee brand I won't name. just sort of middle of the road coffee. And it was very, very clear the difference between the two, because when you went to the Thai coffee shop, the employees were like sitting down on the floor looking at their phone. And you have to be like Nong, nong, Nong and ask them to come. And then they would be, like, bored, and then they would move slowly. You went to Starbucks and all the staff are trained. The process is boom, boom, boom the same every single time and it made such a huge difference.
Noon 00:30:05 I really want to see the SOP, actually. Yeah, it's really something that I always want to see. Yeah. Like these, operation is amazing. and it's so true. And when we talking about all this now Starbucks is is a second wave, right? So it's a phenomenon like the world. Never seen that before. The next things that actually come only on the third wave. So after Starbucks then the third wave was the artisanal roaster and it came the big player was was the Stumptown coffee roaster Blue Bottle. And when that happens, it creates the hipster thing. Okay. Yeah, yeah. That was before 2010, around 2005, 2007, if I remember correctly. And they have the direct trade, which actually the how the Gen Z and Gen Y at the time really perceive its as a really great value because they want to make it sustainable. They want to get the farmer to get more income, you know. So artisanal roaster became a thing. Yeah. More expensive, more craft.
Noon 00:31:16 When that happened in Australia as well in UC's also have a great roster. It became a global phenomenon. Right? Right. And then that's a third way. Then the next wave, which is kind of blur because for me, I think right now we saw that fourth wave is a science in coffee. When we're talking about science, coffee is how we gonna make is consistent. Because when we say artisanal, it also means that maybe tomorrow is not the same.
Greg 00:31:45 Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Because it's handmade. It's.
Noon 00:31:48 Yeah. It's handmade.
Greg 00:31:49 It craft just for you.
Noon 00:31:51 Exactly. Now, when we talk about cafes with high competition, what café has to adjust is to actually make sure that the customer satisfied, they get what they want. Right? Yeah. So this is actually come to the point where consistency matters. You cannot be only artisanal anymore. You need to be consistent in serving coffee to customer. Now, that's not the roaster job. Only the roaster had to make sure that their roast consistently.
Noon 00:32:24 And then now it's a job for cafes and barista to make sure that when the customer came in, they get the same consistent quality every day. Yeah. So when when people actually on the fourth wave of the science of coffee is much richer with the how we roast, well, it has to be repeatable and then the cafes and the barista has to be able to do make it consistent in terms of brewing extraction.
Greg 00:32:52 As the training comes in.
Noon 00:32:53 Yes.
Greg 00:32:54 So as we're as we're finishing up here, let's talk a little bit about llamas or Co. Oh did I say that right. Llamas are Masako. Now these are very high end coffee machines.
Noon 00:33:04 Llamas. Why we have to actually question like why it became this high. Yeah. Luxury things. There is actually a reason why we became a global icon on this. on the specialty coffee because we are very consistent.
Greg 00:33:21 Okay, there we are. There's that word again because.
Noon 00:33:23 It's very consistent in terms of brewing. Like if I'm going to open a cafe and I'm not saying because I'm, I'm working for them, but I chose to work for them because of this.
Noon 00:33:33 I know the product, I know quality and to make good coffee business, to make it sustainable, you have to have a workhorse. Machine never breaks. Very little maintenance and very consistent in brewing coffee. So machine is the only more is a key, but it helps barista to reduce the human errors as much as possible. So in this sense, it's just like the workhorse with intelligence.
Greg 00:34:11 Workhorse with intelligence. I like it just.
Noon 00:34:14 Because it's a lot of innovation in it and I love it. But also the brand itself right now is became the global icon that is in specialty cafes. That also mean that any cafes that have a machine means they're serving good coffee. I mean, that's a community perception. the coffee itself, I wouldn't say bad coffee, low quality coffee. If it's wrapped in la matsuko. It's not going to be good as well, you know.
Greg 00:34:43 Okay.
Noon 00:34:43 Yeah. It doesn't mean that.
Greg 00:34:45 It's not a magic solution.
Noon 00:34:46 Not like the machine going to fix everything. Yeah, the key is the coffee.
Noon 00:34:49 So the coffee is at its best in a sugary form on the tree. So we as a coffee people, or even coffee drinker in general, we our job is to actually keep that quality.
Greg 00:35:04 Right.
Noon 00:35:05 From the farm to the cup. Yeah. That's all we need to do. Yeah. So anything in between that can help sustain that quality along the chain, including, yes, including the roasting machine, including the coffee machine, including a grinder, including people.
Greg 00:35:23 The staff training, the the space that the coffee machine is in.
Noon 00:35:27 And the knowledge.
Greg 00:35:28 Experience.
Noon 00:35:28 Yeah, yeah. Because the next thing that I see, the coffee Thai coffee industry has to go, and it has to be more developed is the knowledge next time. In fact, I wanted let you try the Thai geisha that actually.
Greg 00:35:44 I would.
Noon 00:35:44 Love, I would say is the best, I love it. I mean, it's the best coffee that I ever tasted in my life.
Greg 00:35:51 Where can I get it?
Noon 00:35:53 Not easy.
Greg 00:35:55 If only I had a connection in the coffee industry. Well, noone. Thanks so much for for talking about this. It's really interesting and I'm glad to see that that that Thailand is, is in a unique position, literally to have such a relationship, a close relationship with its growers and the farmers and the producers and the sellers and the vendors and the cafes. it's it's good, it's optimistic. So it makes me optimistic about Thailand, another facet of Thailand that will be unique and exportable and high quality.
Noon 00:36:24 So yes. Thank you. And I really. Now my life I seriously coffee gave me meanings to my life and I love it. I been lucky enough to be on a journey seeing developed, and it's actually a great opportunity to come here and talk about it to more. Because coffee people, I tell you, we in our own bubble, we I don't go out. I don't really see much of other people. So it's really something that I think.
Greg 00:36:53 You wine, wine people, you know, there's like this.
Noon 00:36:56 And I try that too. Like why I'm saying a coffee gave me so much meaning. It's. I tried other stuff too, you know, I try wine, I try especially cheese, I try chocolate, artisanal chocolate. I made chocolate before. And the only thing that keeps me feel. I love it. It's the love of my life. Coffee. So. Yeah.
Greg 00:37:16 Well, like I say, my my 11 year old also loves coffee, which is a problem. but maybe he will be the next. He will. He will be the next great barista in Thailand.
Noon 00:37:26 Oh, not just that. From what I, from what I've heard, he kind of might go deeper than that.
Greg 00:37:31 He might.
Noon 00:37:32 Be.
Greg 00:37:32 Yes, maybe. Maybe he'll be working for you one day.
Noon 00:37:36 Why not?
Greg 00:37:37 Can we pay some rent? Well, thanks. Dude. It was great talking to you. And, let's get together soon over a cup of coffee. Not Starbucks though.
Noon 00:37:45 Thank you so much.
Noon 00:37:46 Next time I brew you coffee.
Greg 00:37:48 I'm looking forward to it.
Noon 00:37:49 And thank you for having me. Thank you, thank you.
Ed 00:37:58 Due to. So funny you found her to interview because I'm a new coffee guy. The last couple of years, I've talked about it before. How I got into the. I got into coffee through nitro cold brew.
Greg 00:38:09 yeah, but it was a gateway coffee.
Ed 00:38:11 That's right. But I keep it. It's so funny. I keep becoming more and more of a coffee guy. it kind of relates to what you were talking about. Where when I started out, since I didn't know anything about it, I was just drinking random coffee. But now, around my university, I've gotten a little bit of a snob. Like where there's a particular proper coffee shop where, God, what do I pay? I think I pay, it's not too bad. It's 90 baht, but the the faculty coffee thing is only 40 bucks. And I used to drink that, but now I'm like, no, no, no, I gotta go to the I gotta go to this, I gotta I'm gonna pay double.
Ed 00:38:47 You know, I've got I've got taste now.
Greg 00:38:52 That's funny. Like, Ed used to be so approachable. Now he's like a super coffee star. He's wearing black turtleneck sweaters, sweaters and berets.
Ed 00:38:59 Well, I'm slowly, you know, it's, I learned my lesson with wine, because I really don't think it's worth becoming a wine snob. You just had to be spending more money. So it's like. So I learned my lesson. It's just like you pick a price point and then just stay there. So I don't really want to become a coffee snob, but, right, I now I feel like I'm part of coffee culture. coincidentally, I just bought one of those capsule coffee machines, and I had my eye. It just arrived yesterday, so I made my my first coffee at home ever this morning. And I gotta say this, it smells great when you brew your own coffee or when you when it when it blasts the hot water through the capsule. Yeah. It smells so damn good.
Greg 00:39:46 Yeah. And it's it's interesting. It was a great discussion with noon. And what's fascinating about coffee is that it's sort of like it's like a noble gas. It kind of changes its shape to fit in any environment, in any situation. You know what I mean? Damn.
Ed 00:40:00 Look at the brain on this guy.
Greg 00:40:03 Bring it up into the note.
Ed 00:40:04 Bringing up the chemistry. In college.
Greg 00:40:06 I played attention in chemistry class. but it's it's it's such a it's and it's, it's gotten ebbs and flows over the years like I talked about in the 90s when friends was super big on TV. Then everyone had to be at coffee shops and, you know, people shit on Starbucks. But noone who would know was like, actually Starbucks. It fills the need and there's there's no point in looking down on it at all. So it's just it was a really interesting discussion. And, what she said about Thai coffee industry, the Thai coffee industry being so unique because it's so close to itself, like it's close to where the beans are grown and roasted and sold.
Greg 00:40:45 So, well.
Ed 00:40:46 I love the fact that there is Thai coffee. In fact, the first so so I my basically I was at Villa yesterday and I didn't know anything about the capsules and so I figured I'd buy. So the capsules I bought are this Thai brand. it's actually a common brand. I've seen the brand. It's Doi Doi Tung. So I'm showing you the Yeah. Yeah, yeah. so my first home brewed coffee was a Thai coffee.
Greg 00:41:12 Nice. Did he get you buzzed?
Ed 00:41:14 Yeah. It worked. it was basically good. You know, my, I don't like I said, I don't really want a super sophisticated palate. So when I tasted the coffee, I was thinking, this is fine. It's good. It was really the smell that that hooked me.
Greg 00:41:28 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Opening a bag of coffee beans and just. Oh. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you, Newton. That was really interesting. And, I, I'm saving my shekels to buy a really nice, really nice coffee machine one day and I'm going to come to you and I have enough.
Greg 00:41:44 So thank you for your time. And, let's get together for a coffee, actually. And you know what noone shared with me? Her, her personal map of her favorite coffee places around Bangkok. Oh, let's do that. So now that now that you're a coffee snob, let's take her map and, we'll check it out.
Ed 00:42:00 Sounds good. Thank you. Noon.
Greg 00:42:02 All right, let's get into some love, loathe or live with where one of us picks a particular aspect of living in Bangkok, which we discuss to decide if it's something we love about living here, loathe about living here, or have come to accept it as something that we just have to learn to live with no matter how we feel about it. And this weekend, I got something for you.
Ed 00:42:18 Alrighty.
Greg 00:42:19 Now, keeping with the, the theme of beverages this week, I want to hear what you think about something that is seems to be sort of like the standard. The default, alcoholic drink when you're out with your pals sitting around a table.
Greg 00:42:38 not nothing high. So you're not in an expensive club or anything. You're just out with your buddies, like maybe at a barbecue joint or something. And that is a bottle of whiskey mixed with soda.
Ed 00:42:47 Not a.
Greg 00:42:48 Fancy take.
Ed 00:42:48 On that. Not a fan. This is Super Thai, so that sounds like a very general question, but actually it's a very Thai question because that is the default, whiskey soda. It's kind of a Thai guy thing. Or when Thais are in big groups, they they get a bottle. They're very. They're much more into. Yeah. This is the interesting little tidbit on Thai culture. If in the States, I don't know what Canada is like, but in the States, if you're at a normal like middle class or working class bar, no one buys bottles.
Greg 00:43:20 You know. No, no, no, Bob's a strange concept when I first got here.
Ed 00:43:23 Yeah, bottles are kind of a club thing, you know? It's like if you're, you know, you're going to spend money, you're going to buy a bottle in a club, but it's not a normal middle class thing.
Ed 00:43:34 But in Thailand it is because I think because they, they have a lot of cheap whiskey, like really cheap whiskey. and so it is a thing when Thai guys get together, it's ice bucket and, and a bottle and I'm not into it at all. I'm not a fan of soda. I mean, I like soda beverages, like Diet Coke, but, like, straight, plain soda. I'm not a fan of it.
Greg 00:43:56 I just finished I just finished a bottle on its own. That's gross. Here.
Ed 00:44:00 That's gross. Did you have that with fish sauce and durian?
Greg 00:44:04 Oh, I'm with you, man. I don't like whiskey and soda. I like soda on its own. Like it's not delicious, but I think it's a nice sort of distracting beverage. But I don't get whiskey and soda. I think together they don't taste very nice. And I'll drink it if I'm out with people and someone gives me one. But I would much rather have a whiskey and Coke or Coke Zero or a whiskey.
Greg 00:44:26 Whatever. agreed. But whiskey soda? It never appealed to me.
Ed 00:44:30 Yeah, I again, I would not call myself, a hater. Like, I'm gonna say I loathe it, but not into it all. But but I would say I'm a I would say I'm a mild loathe. I would never I never order it. And I guess I don't like it. So that's, that's that's worse than I live with.
Greg 00:44:46 Yeah. I'll say mild loathe begrudging. Yeah.
Ed 00:44:49 I'll begrudgingly drink it.
Greg 00:44:51 Yeah, fine. I'll have your free booze.
Ed 00:44:55 All right. A final thanks to our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks. And the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping in our never ending quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where? Bangkok podcast on social media. Bangkok Podcast on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We'd love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages. Unless, of course, you're an agent who sends endless pitch emails on behalf of a client.
Greg 00:45:26 That's right. You can also listen to each episode on YouTube. Send us a voicemail through our website. We'll feature that on the show. Hit me up on blue Sky on BCC daybreak. Thank you for listening, everyone. I'll see you back here next week, no doubt.
Ed 00:00:11 So if you've ever felt lame buying coffee in Starbucks or hunted for ages trying to find the perfect brew at a high end roaster, you'll dig this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.
Greg 00:00:36 Sawa. And welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who had a conversation with a work colleague today and learned that she was one year old when I first came to Thailand.
Ed 00:00:50 Welcome to my world. Many of my students, actually all of my current students were were not born when I first came to Thailand. By far.
Greg 00:01:00 It was sobering.
Ed 00:01:02 Yes. For sure. And I met with an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract over 25 years ago, fell in love with insisting on speaking tied to Thai people while they insist on speaking English with me. So I never left. Dude, it just happened to me in Starbucks. I know this is kind of an old an old thing, but it just happened to me again where I was in Starbucks.
Ed 00:01:26 And when, you know, I want to use Thai. And then the the woman behind the counter, obviously, I guess you want to show me she speaks English or the it's pretty obvious that her English is going better than my Thai. So we just had an entire conversation where she's speaking English and I'm speaking Thai the whole time.
Greg 00:01:42 Yeah, it's so funny. I still love the guy. The train museum that I saw, and I started speaking Thai with him, and after a while he kind of looks at me gently and goes, let's switch to English.
Ed 00:01:53 Well, I like it when I like it when both people just don't acknowledge that you're speaking different, that I'm speaking her language. She's speaking mine. I like when we just both just roll with it.
Greg 00:02:06 It's a great open man. You should just look at her and say. Why don't we switch to the most common language of love? There you go.
Ed 00:02:13 All right. On that note, we want to give you big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show.
Ed 00:02:17 Patrons get every episode a day early, behind the scenes photos of our interviews, a heads up to send questions to upcoming guests, and access to our discord server to chat with me, Greg, and other listeners around the world. But best of all, patrons also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week where we riff on current events and Bangkok topics on this week's bonus show. We chatted about Greg's ultra nerdy new hobby hiding geocaching around Bangkok, how overly strict restrictions on banking and visa regulations are messing things up for people who have nothing to do with the problem the regulations are trying to solve, and discussions on Bangkok's music scene, including upcoming concerts by Kraftwerk, David Byrne and a famous Japanese banjo player. To learn how to become a patron and get all this good stuff. Plus full access to over 800 bonus and regular back episodes, click the support button at the top of our website.
Greg 00:03:17 Right? And don't forget, if you listen to us on Spotify, you can now hear all of our bonus shows there as well.
Greg 00:03:22 If you're a patron, simply link your Patreon account to your Spotify account and add our new feed titled Bangkok Podcast Badass Patrons, only to hear the regular and bonus shows in the same place. All right. On this episode, we chat with a woman named noon, former president and now an honorable advisor of the Specialty Coffee Association of Thailand, which, according to its website, works to advance the Thai coffee industry through standards, education and competitions. Noon is also the managing director of la masako, Thailand. And if you don't know that brand, imagine if Ferrari partnered with Rolex to build coffee machines and you'll be on the right track. They are super, super high end stuff. Oh, cool. So Nuno and I sat down a while ago to talk about coffee culture in general, why the Thai coffee industry is so unique, and why getting a cup of Joe at Starbucks isn't necessarily as bad as it's made out to be. So here is my very interesting conversation with my coffee friend. Noon. All right.
Greg 00:04:28 Well, we are sitting here in a, fittingly or actually probably not very fittingly, considering that we're talking to we're sitting in a Starbucks, so you might hear some little frothing and noise in the background, but that's okay. I'm sitting here with noone, who is the former president of the Specialty Coffee Association of Thailand, current honorary advisor. You've got a lot of titles. And the MD of la masako, Thailand, which is a Very luxe coffee machine company and we're going to talk about that. So something that is really exciting for me because I'm a huge fan of coffee, I think a lot of our listeners are huge fans of coffee, and I've always liked coffee, and it's such a weird drink because it can be shitty coffee and you can just drink it for the effect of the caffeine, or it can be a whole ritual with really high end stuff. So tell us a little bit about yourself, Newton. How did you come into the coffee game? And we'll start there.
Noon 00:05:27 Thank you for having me.
Noon 00:05:29 I'm excited to share this because I know that many of your, I would say listeners are not in coffee industry more like a food and beverage. Some of some of them, but but not in coffee industry. So when I say coffee industry, my background is not coffee as well. I graduated in 2010 and then I joined aerospace industry and then I moved to ExxonMobil, which is oil and gas, and then I moved to coffee. But my coffee journey starts since 2011 and 2011. it became my serious hobby at a time. And I'm a nerd. And coffee work? Yeah, I'm a nerd, so I'm a nerd of everything. Every topic. Really. So if I'm interested in something, I go deep. So I see, I look up all the information, research and stuff. So when I find myself into coffee, I just go deep. Right. Yeah. And then at the time I was really focused on quality. That how I started because my first job was quality was in quality department in aerospace.
Greg 00:06:39 I hope you did a good job because that's what I want when I'm flying on an airplane is quality.
Noon 00:06:42 Well, I can tell you a little bit more about that. So good. But, yeah. So I really focus on quality and what the quality means Is really much to do in the cup. Cup quality and how we test it. Then that's what people perceive. And then when you when I look into more on how it's made a good test profile is we have to trace back to the origin and what the coffee is actually interesting because it's other than, you know, the, the really information that everybody knows that is the second biggest trade in the world after the oil and stuff, but especially coffee or coffee in general. There's so many people and players that have touch on it along the supply chain. Like many, many people, we are talking about the logistic and stuff as well. So what I'm saying is to actually have good quality coffee every single party in the coffee chain, the main job is to Preserve the quality from the origin until to the coffee drinker.
Greg 00:07:55 Right. You and you talked. You mentioned earlier when we were talking about consistency. And it seems like that's why. You mean like like every step of the supply chain needs to be consistent and and focused on quality.
Noon 00:08:06 Yeah. It really have to be very intentional. Yeah. So even though some can be when you say low quality coffee. Yeah. Low quality coffee also has its place. But then when the quality gets sorted or the how how the quality being evaluated. So I start as that. And then it took me to coffee origin and I'm Thai. So I see more of the coffee origin in Thailand. And I saw like I was like a kid, you know, so so I see my I get so sparkling and see like there's like a lot of potential here. Yeah. And we are talking about 2011. So when I see that that we can progress in terms of quality to match with not even match, but create our own terms of quality in in Thai coffee that that's got me going.
Noon 00:09:07 and also like to when I said to to benchmark with other origin, that's also because when I travel, I get to experience more on the other countries that more developed in consumption. Right. And for example, like in Germany or in UK or Australia, they they are really developed in consumption since, I don't know, 30 years. So when I travel, I get to see that that can happen in Thailand too. So I'm trying to see how Thailand can progress in that sense.
Greg 00:09:46 Yeah. So so would you say that Thailand's coffee scene or coffee industry is fairly immature compared to other countries.
Noon 00:09:53 At the moment? No, this is really interesting. I love that question. So our growth rate is crazy. So what I mentioned about the the development in origin, that was 2011 and that is only like 15 years ago. But everything happened so fast. Like right now I can tell. I can say that Thailand is actually developed both production and consumption, and we are the only country as a producing country that have a very developed cafes and consumption in Thailand.
Noon 00:10:28 And we progress so well. And is that's actually a factor that contribute to that actually. Because firstly it's there was a time when when, you know, like because you were here, quite some time. So there's a lot of people that sent their Children to study overseas?
Greg 00:10:47 Sure. Yeah.
Noon 00:10:48 Yeah. And usually it's Australia. UK, New Zealand.
Greg 00:10:53 Places with long histories of coffee. Yes. Yeah.
Noon 00:10:56 So what day brought back was a lot of things. And including this cafe culture.
Greg 00:11:05 Yeah.
Noon 00:11:05 So that's one of the factors that contribute to it. But the growth rate of the production side is mainly because our infrastructure in Thailand, like right now we're sitting here in Satun in the middle of Bangkok. If you want to go to Coffee Farm, we can be there in four hours. This is not like any other origin country.
Greg 00:11:31 That's interesting because we talk about this a lot on the podcast and one of the major appeals of Thailand. And one of the things, especially about Bangkok that's so cool is that it's got all of the high end Western conveniences, but it's also got the funky Asian ness.
Greg 00:11:45 And if you get in a car and drive an hour, you're in the middle of rice fields and, and jungle, you know. So it's a really unique ecosystem for this type of business to exist, I think. Yeah.
Noon 00:11:56 Yeah. You put it just so nice, beautifully, because I see it as a beautiful chaos.
Greg 00:12:02 Right, right. But like in in in in in in Berlin you have great coffee. But but you can't drive an hour and be in a jungle or a coffee plantation.
Noon 00:12:13 No, not at all. You're in France, and this is. I think Thailand is really charming in that. In that way you you have we have mountain, we have the beautiful beach. We have everything literally. So what I'm saying is the, the God rate that's is this high. And we develop so fast, so quickly. It's because the communication is very short, between people who are actually doing, serving coffee, roasting coffee. And they don't they can reflect the cup profile to the farmer very quickly.
Greg 00:12:45 You know what it's like. Thailand is apple because Apple computers, they make the hardware, they make the software, they make the chips. And it's all vertically integrated and it's in the same ecosystem. It's very well. Yeah.
Noon 00:12:56 And this is and you are so. Right. because Thailand by far is the most and I travel to many other origin countries as well, like even our neighbors country, right in, in Indonesia, the famous one in, in our neighbor country or even in Kenya, Tanzania, Colombia, Brazil, even Brazil. Seriously, it's impossible for you to actually get to the farm from the city within a day. No, it took me like 38 hours.
Greg 00:13:29 Oh my God.
Noon 00:13:29 Actually, because it's huge. It's massive. Even in Colombia, that seems like it's not as as big. But still the the road is not that.
Greg 00:13:39 Infrastructure is not there. Yeah.
Noon 00:13:40 The infrastructure is not that great. So what happened is the farmer and, the, the the farmer and the business owner.
Noon 00:13:52 Like the cafe owner, there's actually the communication is lacking. So coffee drinker, we see it as a drink farmer. They see it as a plant. Right. So they don't really see what we are talking about. A cup profile and think. And with that long communication or some. And even now in many in origin country, they are so advanced as well that the farmer know how to cup do the cupping. Cupping is the sensory evaluation, the quality evaluation of coffee. So they can actually evaluate their coffee at the farm. But then if you don't get a chance to actually cup together, do the cupping together, evaluate the coffee at the same time.
Greg 00:14:36 So there's a disconnect between the farmers and the vendors and the producers. Yeah.
Noon 00:14:40 So you don't really speak in the same language. So it's okay, but it's slower down the progression. But in Thailand it's super easy. Like coffee drinker, cafe owner, roaster, they just fly to the origin and do the cupping together and select a lot.
Greg 00:14:57 This reminds me a year ago, you probably still find this online. Actually on YouTube there was a really interesting documentary about a French documentary and this French TV crew flew to, I think it was Guyana. No, not Guyana, some some chocolate producing country. And they went to interview the people who harvest the chocolate, the cocoa pods, and they had never tasted chocolate and they gave them the chocolate. And the guys were like, oh my God, is this what we're making? And one of the funny lines was one of the guys said, this is why those white people are so strong and healthy. But that's a really interesting idea that the communication is what really helped Thailand's coffee industry evolve and grow and mature. Yeah. Interesting. Where? Where do Thai coffee beans sit in in relation to the world? Are they really high quality? Are they different or unique in any way?
Noon 00:15:49 Well, this is a thing about, Thailand. Is the farmer actually more advanced this day? The younger generation go back home to actually produce coffee.
Noon 00:16:02 Processing coffee is great, but what we are sitting in the world stage internationally is not yet that defined. And this is a job as well. When we, we mean specialty coffee Association of Thailand, we actually really moving, trying to shape that direction of where it's going to sit, how the we're going to know about Thai coffee because firstly we are not exporting don't export.
Greg 00:16:34 Thailand exports.
Noon 00:16:35 Very little. Oh and there's reason behind that because in Thailand we consume 90,000 tonnes a year. We produce arabica coffee 15,000.
Greg 00:16:50 Oh, so it's a net importer? Yeah. Oh.
Noon 00:16:53 So what we are drinking, I don't think.
Greg 00:16:57 Sorry. My my my low quality trash coffee at Starbucks.
Noon 00:17:01 Yeah. So let's we can actually forget about it like that. We can export. And why we are not increasing in terms of production. Because firstly, our geographically is not that feasible to actually grow good quality coffee trees. We have very limited land that actually very good for the coffee tree. and Thailand we our competitive advantage has to come from quality because otherwise if you're trying to do in one on quantity, you cannot compete with the neighbor Country's okay.
Greg 00:17:38 Like Indonesia and things like that. Yeah.
Noon 00:17:39 Like our, like, club country. They are producing coffee and we never be able to match their labor costs.
Greg 00:17:47 I do love lush and coffee. It's real good. Yeah.
Noon 00:17:50 That's why. That's why we have to find our own identity and the meaning of Thai coffee.
Greg 00:17:57 Okay, okay.
Noon 00:17:57 So when we talk about, like, where we are sitting in the world right now, it's a people get more knowledge about Thai coffee because we're trying to communicate more in terms of having testing here and there in other countries, in other regions, in other region. But mostly it's not that yet defined. I would say.
Greg 00:18:21 Interesting. So what is the Specialty Coffee Association doing to change that?
Noon 00:18:27 We actually focus more right now. It's about the variety because for the past ten years we have been doing for in terms of processing, because in terms of variety, varietal copyright is really something that very specific. What we had for the past ten years was we looked at our current varieties in Thailand and is not that great.
Noon 00:18:52 And there's a reason for that too, because we are so young as a producing country, the coffee actually being planted to get rid of the opium.
Greg 00:19:03 Sure. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah, yeah. Famously, if you're if you're not familiar listeners like your many decades ago, opium was one of the biggest products coming out of the northern Thailand of the Golden Triangle. But a lot of royal initiatives and other initiatives sort of worked to replace opium with coffee as a as a crop. Yes.
Noon 00:19:20 And at a time it was to solve the problem. So the variety had to be productive economically and also more sustainably in terms of it has to be very resistant to very resistant, very productive. So the variety that was chosen is like Katie Moore. The Katie Moore is a hybrid between Arabica and Robusta.
Greg 00:19:44 Oh, I never even heard that before.
Noon 00:19:46 Yeah, it's a hybrid. Now we have a lot of great hybrid. and there are also some, some, some other variety. A lot actually, that because it was in the Royal project and when they gave away the seedling, it just mix and everything.
Noon 00:20:01 So in Thailand, when you go to coffee farm, every coffee tree are just like, mix.
Greg 00:20:05 Like a mud, a mud coffee tree.
Noon 00:20:07 It's a mix. And what we did on only thing that we could do at a time ten years ago was to improve the processing, how to actually develop the cut more to taste better.
Greg 00:20:21 Okay. Okay.
Noon 00:20:22 And we can achieve that. Right? Right now, for the past two years, I believe we really focus on variety. Okay. So like now, Farmer rich saddle. You're great. Your life is great. Now it has to come to the point where we need to invest in in in variety.
Greg 00:20:44 So you're getting rid of the mud trees. And.
Noon 00:20:46 Yeah, because this is really something that the farmer really reluctant to do it. And when I said invest in that sense, it's not that it's not that we're going to let them by the seedling. It's not like that. But to plant a new coffee trees, you have to wait three years until you can do the first harvest.
Noon 00:21:03 So that's mean your production, your income going to be less for three years right now. Actually, like a lot of you're going to find many at a more and more advanced farmer. Advanced means they are more dynamic. They are really willing to change. They want to try everything. And sometimes it can be good, very, very good. They want to try a new variety and think that sometimes it can be too quick. This is the downside of of too fast or progress, right? Because they are willing to do and sacrifice everything without really having enough data to support a decision so they can plant the geisha variety, which is very fragile, like it's a nice, beautiful lady, but a lot of, like any beautiful lady is a high maintenance.
Greg 00:21:54 Yeah. So glad you said it.
Noon 00:21:57 So that's geisha, Okay, so also means that geisha is not always going to survive in every part of your village, you know? So this is something that we need to look into. And that's why it takes longer than develop the processing.
Greg 00:22:17 And plus you're also dealing with people, right? Personalities and humans. And I imagine not everyone is willing to, to to give up some short term gains. You're like come on do it for the global coffee industry. And they're like, I don't really care about the global coffee. I have to put my kids to school, right? I need to make money.
Noon 00:22:35 So and so. That's why I'm saying that. Okay. Now the processing part is great. Farmers in Thailand, they are not poor. Coffee farmer here is rich. Actually they are.
Greg 00:22:45 I thought all the durian farmers were rich. I didn't think about coffee.
Noon 00:22:49 and why is that? Is because Thai coffee. It's quite expensive. But why? I'm saying it's expensive. It's. I'm not. I don't want Thai coffee to be cheaper. My goal, our goal, actually, is to make the quality high enough to justify the price.
Greg 00:23:08 Are you seeing young Thais adopt coffee culture more, or is it? Is it? Is that a trend you're able to observe? Is it older? Thais is young.
Greg 00:23:17 Thais is. How does it.
Noon 00:23:19 Change? I can actually say that from Gen X wise and even our for this day. Yeah. The growth it's so much it's actually if we we see that the coffee culture change, developed so much when, the Gen Y like me and the the beginning of Gen Y and big, like the Gen X, Gen Y actually is willing to spend more on the value. And especially coffee is about value the value in terms of the how they feel, how they see what they, what the the things that are using the things that are eating, drinking are valuable or not that have a perceived value. So especially coffee land that perfectly in terms of sustainability experience, emotional products. you have a ratio there. You can you have a functional from it.
Greg 00:24:17 And I think it dovetails nicely to is sort of Thailand's rising or growing middle class with a little bit more disposable income. And the, the, the hip factor, the Instagram factor, all of these things combined. And coffee is is such a really flexible and dynamic product that it can kind of fill any of that, any of those niches.
Noon 00:24:38 That's very true. And coffee is super flexible, even can match with any other industry as well.
Greg 00:24:44 I mean, it kind of in North America anyway, in Western culture there. It started with friends, the TV show in 1994, I think it first came on.
Noon 00:24:53 Oh, I watch every episode.
Greg 00:24:54 Me too is my guilty pleasure, I love it. I will defend Ross to the end of time. It was. He was one of the best physical comedians in that show. Bit of a doofus. But anyway, I mean, that really kick started the cafe culture in North America. Or maybe re kick started it, I don't know. But before that, it didn't really exist. And then suddenly it was really cool to go and hang out in, in cafes. And I don't think that ever really went away. Just sort of evolved, slashed, mutated. And what we were talking about earlier was there's there's two ways to look at coffee. It's it's it's functional or emotional and functional would be sort of like I, I don't really care what it tastes like.
Greg 00:25:33 I just need this can of iced coffee from 7-Eleven to, to to swig before my bike ride, which is what I do so I don't get a headache from caffeine withdrawal later in the day. it's just quick down and dirty. Or it can be emotional where you really want to experience it. You want to know and understand where the beans come from and the process that it takes to get from that to the cup of brown liquid into your cup. So it's it's a very flexible dynamic.
Noon 00:25:59 Very, very the first wave was that functional drink. So we need a hit in the morning just to wake us up. That's the first wave. So that's the instant coffee as convenient as possible. Fast quick. Then the second wave came. And this is the place where we're sitting here, the Starbucks. Yeah, Starbucks changed that to have this cafe culture a little bit like that.
Greg 00:26:24 And I don't think I mean, I come to Starbucks 50% for the coffee, which is all right. But I come here because I know exactly what I'm going to get.
Greg 00:26:31 Comfy chairs are comfortable. It's air conditioned. Yes, I know the menu. I know the service is going to be good. The staff are trained well.
Noon 00:26:37 This is a thing because when people are like when, when, when when we met as well, when people sees that I'm a coffee person, they'll be like, oh no, she doesn't drink Starbucks. Starbucks. Like she kind of hates it. It's not true. I actually really like what Starbucks has done for for coffee. It's even doing. I love their marketing. They are my marketing guru really. Even right now they struggle in terms of global business. I still keep really close eyes on on how they're going to make decisions because they are huge, the massive and what the next move that they're going to do is really interesting. And they always make a move even desperately, but they survive. So this is really, they're super smart. And the operational level is like, damn, they're so good at operational system. so Starbuck is actually the second wave.
Noon 00:27:31 And what I'm saying is second wave. If people actually come to hang out in cafes. Okay. They introduce the third place. Other than Home Office, they introduce the third place.
Greg 00:27:43 Third place theory. That's a big one. Yeah.
Noon 00:27:45 So when they come to the third place and when people come back, just want to get out and want to hang out, but they don't know where to go. So the end of the day we don't go to bar, go to.
Greg 00:27:53 Starbucks. My million dollar idea is to stand outside a Starbucks with a with a with a box selling duvets and blankets. Because especially when just before university exams, because Starbucks are full of university students in front of their computers who sit here for six hours, but they're freezing cold, so they need to cover up.
Noon 00:28:11 Yes. And also when this is really interesting, what you just said that matches perfectly. The thing is Starbucks. Are they actually selling coffee or are they selling space.
Greg 00:28:21 The experience or are they selling the comfortable chairs? Yeah, I don't know.
Greg 00:28:25 Like I said, I think it's I think it's a little bit of both. Yes.
Noon 00:28:28 So, so when, when we talk about that, that's what I'm saying about whether, when people ask me if cafe is all this specialty cafe going to survive, it's not like that. It's like it's really much a what are we selling? What are they selling? It's a totally different, distinctive group.
Greg 00:28:45 You know, one of my favorite, small coffee shops was in, Central World. I used to go to on the fifth floor and it was called Alto Roasters. And I don't know what it was, but their coffee, I thought, was really good. Really good.
Noon 00:28:57 They actually have been around in coffee industry very a long time. Really. Yes. Okay. I think since 2014 or something at least. Yeah. Wow. And why I bring that up. Is that because of the competition in cafes? Right. So anyone who can stay and survive for these long and still very progressive, they're good.
Greg 00:29:20 You got to do something. They got to be doing something right.
Noon 00:29:22 Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Greg 00:29:24 What were you saying earlier about the process of coffee is interesting to you. And I've told this story on the podcast before, but in Central World, when I was back at pagoda, there was there was a coffee shop we used to go to, and there was Starbucks. And then next to it was a Thai coffee brand I won't name. just sort of middle of the road coffee. And it was very, very clear the difference between the two, because when you went to the Thai coffee shop, the employees were like sitting down on the floor looking at their phone. And you have to be like Nong, nong, Nong and ask them to come. And then they would be, like, bored, and then they would move slowly. You went to Starbucks and all the staff are trained. The process is boom, boom, boom the same every single time and it made such a huge difference.
Noon 00:30:05 I really want to see the SOP, actually. Yeah, it's really something that I always want to see. Yeah. Like these, operation is amazing. and it's so true. And when we talking about all this now Starbucks is is a second wave, right? So it's a phenomenon like the world. Never seen that before. The next things that actually come only on the third wave. So after Starbucks then the third wave was the artisanal roaster and it came the big player was was the Stumptown coffee roaster Blue Bottle. And when that happens, it creates the hipster thing. Okay. Yeah, yeah. That was before 2010, around 2005, 2007, if I remember correctly. And they have the direct trade, which actually the how the Gen Z and Gen Y at the time really perceive its as a really great value because they want to make it sustainable. They want to get the farmer to get more income, you know. So artisanal roaster became a thing. Yeah. More expensive, more craft.
Noon 00:31:16 When that happened in Australia as well in UC's also have a great roster. It became a global phenomenon. Right? Right. And then that's a third way. Then the next wave, which is kind of blur because for me, I think right now we saw that fourth wave is a science in coffee. When we're talking about science, coffee is how we gonna make is consistent. Because when we say artisanal, it also means that maybe tomorrow is not the same.
Greg 00:31:45 Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Because it's handmade. It's.
Noon 00:31:48 Yeah. It's handmade.
Greg 00:31:49 It craft just for you.
Noon 00:31:51 Exactly. Now, when we talk about cafes with high competition, what café has to adjust is to actually make sure that the customer satisfied, they get what they want. Right? Yeah. So this is actually come to the point where consistency matters. You cannot be only artisanal anymore. You need to be consistent in serving coffee to customer. Now, that's not the roaster job. Only the roaster had to make sure that their roast consistently.
Noon 00:32:24 And then now it's a job for cafes and barista to make sure that when the customer came in, they get the same consistent quality every day. Yeah. So when when people actually on the fourth wave of the science of coffee is much richer with the how we roast, well, it has to be repeatable and then the cafes and the barista has to be able to do make it consistent in terms of brewing extraction.
Greg 00:32:52 As the training comes in.
Noon 00:32:53 Yes.
Greg 00:32:54 So as we're as we're finishing up here, let's talk a little bit about llamas or Co. Oh did I say that right. Llamas are Masako. Now these are very high end coffee machines.
Noon 00:33:04 Llamas. Why we have to actually question like why it became this high. Yeah. Luxury things. There is actually a reason why we became a global icon on this. on the specialty coffee because we are very consistent.
Greg 00:33:21 Okay, there we are. There's that word again because.
Noon 00:33:23 It's very consistent in terms of brewing. Like if I'm going to open a cafe and I'm not saying because I'm, I'm working for them, but I chose to work for them because of this.
Noon 00:33:33 I know the product, I know quality and to make good coffee business, to make it sustainable, you have to have a workhorse. Machine never breaks. Very little maintenance and very consistent in brewing coffee. So machine is the only more is a key, but it helps barista to reduce the human errors as much as possible. So in this sense, it's just like the workhorse with intelligence.
Greg 00:34:11 Workhorse with intelligence. I like it just.
Noon 00:34:14 Because it's a lot of innovation in it and I love it. But also the brand itself right now is became the global icon that is in specialty cafes. That also mean that any cafes that have a machine means they're serving good coffee. I mean, that's a community perception. the coffee itself, I wouldn't say bad coffee, low quality coffee. If it's wrapped in la matsuko. It's not going to be good as well, you know.
Greg 00:34:43 Okay.
Noon 00:34:43 Yeah. It doesn't mean that.
Greg 00:34:45 It's not a magic solution.
Noon 00:34:46 Not like the machine going to fix everything. Yeah, the key is the coffee.
Noon 00:34:49 So the coffee is at its best in a sugary form on the tree. So we as a coffee people, or even coffee drinker in general, we our job is to actually keep that quality.
Greg 00:35:04 Right.
Noon 00:35:05 From the farm to the cup. Yeah. That's all we need to do. Yeah. So anything in between that can help sustain that quality along the chain, including, yes, including the roasting machine, including the coffee machine, including a grinder, including people.
Greg 00:35:23 The staff training, the the space that the coffee machine is in.
Noon 00:35:27 And the knowledge.
Greg 00:35:28 Experience.
Noon 00:35:28 Yeah, yeah. Because the next thing that I see, the coffee Thai coffee industry has to go, and it has to be more developed is the knowledge next time. In fact, I wanted let you try the Thai geisha that actually.
Greg 00:35:44 I would.
Noon 00:35:44 Love, I would say is the best, I love it. I mean, it's the best coffee that I ever tasted in my life.
Greg 00:35:51 Where can I get it?
Noon 00:35:53 Not easy.
Greg 00:35:55 If only I had a connection in the coffee industry. Well, noone. Thanks so much for for talking about this. It's really interesting and I'm glad to see that that that Thailand is, is in a unique position, literally to have such a relationship, a close relationship with its growers and the farmers and the producers and the sellers and the vendors and the cafes. it's it's good, it's optimistic. So it makes me optimistic about Thailand, another facet of Thailand that will be unique and exportable and high quality.
Noon 00:36:24 So yes. Thank you. And I really. Now my life I seriously coffee gave me meanings to my life and I love it. I been lucky enough to be on a journey seeing developed, and it's actually a great opportunity to come here and talk about it to more. Because coffee people, I tell you, we in our own bubble, we I don't go out. I don't really see much of other people. So it's really something that I think.
Greg 00:36:53 You wine, wine people, you know, there's like this.
Noon 00:36:56 And I try that too. Like why I'm saying a coffee gave me so much meaning. It's. I tried other stuff too, you know, I try wine, I try especially cheese, I try chocolate, artisanal chocolate. I made chocolate before. And the only thing that keeps me feel. I love it. It's the love of my life. Coffee. So. Yeah.
Greg 00:37:16 Well, like I say, my my 11 year old also loves coffee, which is a problem. but maybe he will be the next. He will. He will be the next great barista in Thailand.
Noon 00:37:26 Oh, not just that. From what I, from what I've heard, he kind of might go deeper than that.
Greg 00:37:31 He might.
Noon 00:37:32 Be.
Greg 00:37:32 Yes, maybe. Maybe he'll be working for you one day.
Noon 00:37:36 Why not?
Greg 00:37:37 Can we pay some rent? Well, thanks. Dude. It was great talking to you. And, let's get together soon over a cup of coffee. Not Starbucks though.
Noon 00:37:45 Thank you so much.
Noon 00:37:46 Next time I brew you coffee.
Greg 00:37:48 I'm looking forward to it.
Noon 00:37:49 And thank you for having me. Thank you, thank you.
Ed 00:37:58 Due to. So funny you found her to interview because I'm a new coffee guy. The last couple of years, I've talked about it before. How I got into the. I got into coffee through nitro cold brew.
Greg 00:38:09 yeah, but it was a gateway coffee.
Ed 00:38:11 That's right. But I keep it. It's so funny. I keep becoming more and more of a coffee guy. it kind of relates to what you were talking about. Where when I started out, since I didn't know anything about it, I was just drinking random coffee. But now, around my university, I've gotten a little bit of a snob. Like where there's a particular proper coffee shop where, God, what do I pay? I think I pay, it's not too bad. It's 90 baht, but the the faculty coffee thing is only 40 bucks. And I used to drink that, but now I'm like, no, no, no, I gotta go to the I gotta go to this, I gotta I'm gonna pay double.
Ed 00:38:47 You know, I've got I've got taste now.
Greg 00:38:52 That's funny. Like, Ed used to be so approachable. Now he's like a super coffee star. He's wearing black turtleneck sweaters, sweaters and berets.
Ed 00:38:59 Well, I'm slowly, you know, it's, I learned my lesson with wine, because I really don't think it's worth becoming a wine snob. You just had to be spending more money. So it's like. So I learned my lesson. It's just like you pick a price point and then just stay there. So I don't really want to become a coffee snob, but, right, I now I feel like I'm part of coffee culture. coincidentally, I just bought one of those capsule coffee machines, and I had my eye. It just arrived yesterday, so I made my my first coffee at home ever this morning. And I gotta say this, it smells great when you brew your own coffee or when you when it when it blasts the hot water through the capsule. Yeah. It smells so damn good.
Greg 00:39:46 Yeah. And it's it's interesting. It was a great discussion with noon. And what's fascinating about coffee is that it's sort of like it's like a noble gas. It kind of changes its shape to fit in any environment, in any situation. You know what I mean? Damn.
Ed 00:40:00 Look at the brain on this guy.
Greg 00:40:03 Bring it up into the note.
Ed 00:40:04 Bringing up the chemistry. In college.
Greg 00:40:06 I played attention in chemistry class. but it's it's it's such a it's and it's, it's gotten ebbs and flows over the years like I talked about in the 90s when friends was super big on TV. Then everyone had to be at coffee shops and, you know, people shit on Starbucks. But noone who would know was like, actually Starbucks. It fills the need and there's there's no point in looking down on it at all. So it's just it was a really interesting discussion. And, what she said about Thai coffee industry, the Thai coffee industry being so unique because it's so close to itself, like it's close to where the beans are grown and roasted and sold.
Greg 00:40:45 So, well.
Ed 00:40:46 I love the fact that there is Thai coffee. In fact, the first so so I my basically I was at Villa yesterday and I didn't know anything about the capsules and so I figured I'd buy. So the capsules I bought are this Thai brand. it's actually a common brand. I've seen the brand. It's Doi Doi Tung. So I'm showing you the Yeah. Yeah, yeah. so my first home brewed coffee was a Thai coffee.
Greg 00:41:12 Nice. Did he get you buzzed?
Ed 00:41:14 Yeah. It worked. it was basically good. You know, my, I don't like I said, I don't really want a super sophisticated palate. So when I tasted the coffee, I was thinking, this is fine. It's good. It was really the smell that that hooked me.
Greg 00:41:28 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Opening a bag of coffee beans and just. Oh. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you, Newton. That was really interesting. And, I, I'm saving my shekels to buy a really nice, really nice coffee machine one day and I'm going to come to you and I have enough.
Greg 00:41:44 So thank you for your time. And, let's get together for a coffee, actually. And you know what noone shared with me? Her, her personal map of her favorite coffee places around Bangkok. Oh, let's do that. So now that now that you're a coffee snob, let's take her map and, we'll check it out.
Ed 00:42:00 Sounds good. Thank you. Noon.
Greg 00:42:02 All right, let's get into some love, loathe or live with where one of us picks a particular aspect of living in Bangkok, which we discuss to decide if it's something we love about living here, loathe about living here, or have come to accept it as something that we just have to learn to live with no matter how we feel about it. And this weekend, I got something for you.
Ed 00:42:18 Alrighty.
Greg 00:42:19 Now, keeping with the, the theme of beverages this week, I want to hear what you think about something that is seems to be sort of like the standard. The default, alcoholic drink when you're out with your pals sitting around a table.
Greg 00:42:38 not nothing high. So you're not in an expensive club or anything. You're just out with your buddies, like maybe at a barbecue joint or something. And that is a bottle of whiskey mixed with soda.
Ed 00:42:47 Not a.
Greg 00:42:48 Fancy take.
Ed 00:42:48 On that. Not a fan. This is Super Thai, so that sounds like a very general question, but actually it's a very Thai question because that is the default, whiskey soda. It's kind of a Thai guy thing. Or when Thais are in big groups, they they get a bottle. They're very. They're much more into. Yeah. This is the interesting little tidbit on Thai culture. If in the States, I don't know what Canada is like, but in the States, if you're at a normal like middle class or working class bar, no one buys bottles.
Greg 00:43:20 You know. No, no, no, Bob's a strange concept when I first got here.
Ed 00:43:23 Yeah, bottles are kind of a club thing, you know? It's like if you're, you know, you're going to spend money, you're going to buy a bottle in a club, but it's not a normal middle class thing.
Ed 00:43:34 But in Thailand it is because I think because they, they have a lot of cheap whiskey, like really cheap whiskey. and so it is a thing when Thai guys get together, it's ice bucket and, and a bottle and I'm not into it at all. I'm not a fan of soda. I mean, I like soda beverages, like Diet Coke, but, like, straight, plain soda. I'm not a fan of it.
Greg 00:43:56 I just finished I just finished a bottle on its own. That's gross. Here.
Ed 00:44:00 That's gross. Did you have that with fish sauce and durian?
Greg 00:44:04 Oh, I'm with you, man. I don't like whiskey and soda. I like soda on its own. Like it's not delicious, but I think it's a nice sort of distracting beverage. But I don't get whiskey and soda. I think together they don't taste very nice. And I'll drink it if I'm out with people and someone gives me one. But I would much rather have a whiskey and Coke or Coke Zero or a whiskey.
Greg 00:44:26 Whatever. agreed. But whiskey soda? It never appealed to me.
Ed 00:44:30 Yeah, I again, I would not call myself, a hater. Like, I'm gonna say I loathe it, but not into it all. But but I would say I'm a I would say I'm a mild loathe. I would never I never order it. And I guess I don't like it. So that's, that's that's worse than I live with.
Greg 00:44:46 Yeah. I'll say mild loathe begrudging. Yeah.
Ed 00:44:49 I'll begrudgingly drink it.
Greg 00:44:51 Yeah, fine. I'll have your free booze.
Ed 00:44:55 All right. A final thanks to our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks. And the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping in our never ending quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where? Bangkok podcast on social media. Bangkok Podcast on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We'd love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages. Unless, of course, you're an agent who sends endless pitch emails on behalf of a client.
Greg 00:45:26 That's right. You can also listen to each episode on YouTube. Send us a voicemail through our website. We'll feature that on the show. Hit me up on blue Sky on BCC daybreak. Thank you for listening, everyone. I'll see you back here next week, no doubt.
