Murder in Thailand: Kevin Maes Talks About His Book “Kingdom of Trials” [S8.E15]

Greg 00:00:05 On this episode, we interview Kevin Mays, author of a new book called Kingdom of Trials.

Ed 00:00:11 So if you've ever wondered what the Thai justice system looks like from the inside in the wake of a murder investigation, you'll dig. This episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg 00:00:36 Sahwa. This is the Bangkok podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, Canadian who has never been put in prison in Thailand. But if I step on one more sidewalk tile and get a squirt of dirty water at my leg, that might change.

Ed 00:00:49 Man, that's a little bit of a callback. That hasn't happened to me in a while.

Greg 00:00:54 You're like, I'm in the free and then.

Ed 00:00:56 Bam, it happens.

Greg 00:00:57 Again. Out of the blue. Out of the blue.

Ed 00:00:59 And I met Knuth, an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract over 25 years ago, fell in love with being called farang by Thai. People who know my name. So I never left.

Greg 00:01:10 That's a good one. It's like I find it kind of charming a lot.

Greg 00:01:15 Some. Some people get insulted by it, but, well, it's funny, I find it, I find it silly, but I don't get offended.

Ed 00:01:20 It's funny because it's in the West. It would be incredibly rude to just refer to someone as foreigner, but in Thailand it just somehow passes and you just kind of roll with it.

Greg 00:01:32 I don't know. In Gladiator they called Maximus the Spaniard all the time. So I take it maybe they think I'm a bad ass warrior.

Ed 00:01:38 There you go.

Greg 00:01:39 There you go, Spaniard.

Ed 00:01:40 All right. We want to give a big thank you to one of our patrons, George Hallett, who supports us at the show. Shout out level. Stick around. After our interview with author Kevin Mayes to hear why Greg has convinced him to join a bike ride, which he has dubbed the Goldilocks Ride.

Greg 00:01:54 Yeah, it's gonna be fun.

Ed 00:01:56 We also want to give a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get every episode today, early behind the scenes photos of our interviews, a heads up to send questions to upcoming guests, and access to our discord server to chat with me, Greg, and other listeners around the world.

Ed 00:02:10 But best of all, patrons also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week wherever you riff on current events and Bangkok topics on this week's bonus show. We chatted about the culmination of my long brewing moving drama, a discussion about Greg's trip to explore the jungles and rivers of Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, some thoughts on the huge sinkhole that opened up on Samson Road last week, and Greg's report of an interesting and ultimately successful birds and bees discussion with his son. To learn how to become a patron and get all this good stuff, plus full access to over 800 bonus and regular back episodes. Click the support button at the top of our website.

Greg 00:02:56 The ultimate goal in doing this with my son is to make sure that no woman ever laughs at his lack of knowledge of of how she works.

Ed 00:03:04 It sounds like you might have some bad memories.

Greg 00:03:08 No, I've just seen how vicious women can be when guys are dumb. So that's my job.

Ed 00:03:14 Funny.

Greg 00:03:14 Also, don't forget, if you listen to us on Spotify, you can now hear all of our bonus shows there as well.

Greg 00:03:18 If you're a patron. Simply link your Patreon account to your Spotify account and add our new feed titled Bangkok Podcast Badass Patrons only to hear the regular and bonus shows in the same place. All right. On this episode, we were lucky enough to be invited to an actual podcast studio by this week's guest. We introduced to a guy by the name of Kevin Maes, an author author with a new book whose story is pretty wild. I'll just quote directly from the book jacket here. Kevin's dream life in Thailand shatters when he intervenes in a domestic dispute and is accused of murdering his ex-wife's boyfriend with cultural and language barriers, vanishing evidence and legal loopholes working against him, the Belgian expat must unravel the events of that fateful night to avoid imprisonment in Thailand's notorious Bangkok Hilton prison. Makes my frustrations with Thai bank tellers seem a little bit quaint in comparison. Now, as I said, we took a trip to Kevin's studio on Rama four, and we actually recorded some of our video for the episode two, which will upload on Patreon for patrons and which you can see on Kevin's YouTube channel soon.

Greg 00:04:17 So here is our fascinating discussion with our friend, author Kevin Maes. All right. Bit of a departure. This week we are talking to our brand new friend, Kevin Maes. Did I say that correctly?

Kevin 00:04:41 Yeah, you said it correctly. Kevin Maes, welcome to the bank. You're the first one in Bangkok. Probably that says it correctly. So.

Greg 00:04:46 Well, I do have European stock somewhere far in my in my ancestors mouth. Yeah. So, Kevin Maes, welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. And I'm here with editor as well. Hello. Hello. Yeah. Now, like I said, a little bit of a departure this week because we are actually recording this in a studio. Yeah. And, hasn't decided.

Kevin 00:05:04 Are we sure you should talk to the camera once in a while as well?

Greg 00:05:08 Yeah, I should. I'm not used to being on camera. Or can we can we put this camera on this this video on our our channel two.

Kevin 00:05:14 Or can it. Look, I will edit it and then, Yeah, sure.

Greg 00:05:17 All right. Yeah.

Greg 00:05:19 Well, we're not used to recording in the studio, so this is really an interesting thing. So this is your studio, and you invited us down here to, to have a chat. So we're doing a little bit of a cross-promotion here, so. Yeah. really interesting topic we're going to talk about this week. And you have a crazy story. So give us a skinny man. Where, where are you from? Who are you? Why are you here? And what are we going to talk about?

Kevin 00:05:38 Yeah, so I live I lived in I have two parts of being in Thailand. Part one was, I lived here 16 years. I had a company doing import of beauty products, cosmetics, medical devices, and.

Ed 00:05:54 You're from Belgium?

Kevin 00:05:56 Originally from Belgium? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I like to say Antwerp, Belgium is a very weird country with two parts of people that don't like each other, so.

Ed 00:06:05 I guess that's right.

Kevin 00:06:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin 00:06:06 Well, it's very, very similar to Canada and so. Yeah. Like to say Antwerp. We are very proud of that. So we are from the Flemish part, not the French part.

Ed 00:06:15 All right.

Kevin 00:06:15 It's a joke that I have to watch out with when I do it in Bangkok. Because, you know, when people ask me, yeah. Which part are you from? And I say from the good part. And then by accident, I said it three times already to a guy that was from the bad part, so funny. And they don't think it's funny.

Greg 00:06:29 But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin 00:06:30 For me it's like super funny then you know.

Ed 00:06:32 But yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

Kevin 00:06:33 But the French have a very little sense of humor. So.

Ed 00:06:37 Right.

Kevin 00:06:39 Yeah. So I've been here 16 years. and then I had, an unfortunate event happening, which we will talk about a little bit in this podcast. So I had to leave Thailand again. So I've been back for one and a half years in Belgium.

Kevin 00:06:56 There was a mixed feeling experience, you know, because I lived my entire adult life here. I came here when I was 23, right? Wow. so, yeah, I never knew anything else. So this was.

Ed 00:07:07 So it's weird to go back to even though you were born in Belgium was weird. It was so weird.

Kevin 00:07:11 It was super weird because you. It's very weird to see how detached you get after 16 years being in a different place. And again, I think for me, because I what's my adult life here, it's even different, right? So you just grew up as a kid, so you have all those memories. But, yeah, it was the country changed a lot.

Ed 00:07:30 And plus you went back under weird circumstances. So you probably got a lot of questions in.

Ed 00:07:33 Belgium, you know? Why are you back? What happened?

Kevin 00:07:36 Well, the story was, front, front page news in Belgium.

Ed 00:07:41 Oh, wow.

Kevin 00:07:41 Oh, okay. Yeah. Everybody knew.

Kevin 00:07:43 So when? After the night it happened, I was with my face on the biggest news channel in Belgium. So I got all those messages from people.

Ed 00:07:51 Wow.

Kevin 00:07:51 So, yeah. No, it was not a secret. and people, you know, they. I'm happy actually with that. But people, the story was covered so much so they didn't really bother me with questions. I was just. Okay. And I must say, the first few months being back, I was happy to be back. It was, a relief because, you know, at the end of my story, I really got everything like Covid, this all together, company issues. So it was I was done.

Ed 00:08:19 So at that point, you were happy to be gone, but, then you obviously made it back into Thailand.

Kevin 00:08:24 Yes. I mean, my case is settled, so it's not like I sneaked in through the border or.

Ed 00:08:29 Something.

Kevin 00:08:30 And I wouldn't be able to do it anyway, because you get now the Cambodia Thailand issue.

Kevin 00:08:34 Right. So that border is like.

Ed 00:08:36 right.

Kevin 00:08:36 Right. It's too, too challenging now.

Ed 00:08:38 Well, the story.

Greg 00:08:39 The story that you're going to tell is interesting because it touches on, on, on, you know, Thai culture. It touches on relationships and being an expat and the Thai legal system and things like that. And we should we should hold this up, too. Now, you, you you detail this in your book called Kingdom of Trials. Yeah. Murder was the case a true story? Yeah. and this is especially interesting for, for for Ed because, you know, we've talked on our, on our podcast a lot about the justice system and the Thai legal system, and we've sort of circled around this idea that it's actually a lot more magnanimous and fair than I think a lot of people would automatically believe, because there's a lot of gossip about.

Ed 00:09:16 That's right. We were just talking. Yeah, we were just chatting before we began recording that. Among expats, there's a real.

Ed 00:09:22 Mix.

Ed 00:09:23 Of stories. Yeah, you.

Ed 00:09:24 Know, you do hear.

Ed 00:09:25 Horror stories, but then you hear surprisingly good stories. Yeah. And your story, I guess, is more complicated. But maybe we should just jump into your story.

Ed 00:09:33 So basically.

Ed 00:09:34 You were a long time expat with a real job. You weren't like a bum living on the beach. You were an upstanding citizen. So what happened?

Kevin 00:09:43 Well, I came a the short version is I came in in between a domestic dispute. So, from my ex-wife, which makes it a little bit more complicated, but she had a new boyfriend. and that person also worked for me, so it was my right hand guy in the company, and. Yeah. So it's, you know, that's one of the things also that, the other side try to play out like it's a love triangle and everything.

Ed 00:10:08 So your ex girlfriend's new boyfriend was your right hand man in your company? Oh, God.

Kevin 00:10:13 But, okay, I will step back a little bit because it's, We came here together, so it was my Belgian wife 16 years ago.

Kevin 00:10:21 We came here together, and after a year, we, we said, okay, this is not working, you know, working and living together. so what are we going to do? Are we going to go back, try to save the marriage, or we're going to keep working here and follow our dream? And we instantly both said, okay, we stay here, we follow our dream, and we go our own way. So it was a very long time ago and we were very young. So since then we are actually business partners. Gotcha. And then, you know, the guy, he was from Singapore and he was a very smart, handsome guy. We were in the beauty business. He spoke Thai, so he had some things that we were missing. So, you know, someday, her name is Sarah. She said, look, I got somebody potential that can work in the company that can help us. We were really looking for good people because it's still challenging here.

Kevin 00:11:05 So I said, okay, you know, why not? I didn't have any grudges or whatever. And I met the guy, and we we hit off, like, like friends from the very first moment. And, you know, in the company, I actually had a better relationship with him than than they had because, quite fast, you saw them, that they had issues and the company a lot of, fights and arguments between them. And I always had to interfere. Right. So, like, okay, guys, calm down. And I was like, the the peacemaker. Yeah. The peacemaker.

Ed 00:11:36 Right.

Kevin 00:11:37 Until. Yeah, that evening. So, the fight got out of hand. So I kept getting phone calls from her and from Sarah and her parents because they were here. They were in Pattaya at that moment. they couldn't make it back on time, so. And it was really getting out of hand. So at first I said, like, leave me out of it, right? I said, I, I was at a networking in Chungcheong, see, somewhere.

Kevin 00:12:00 I said, look, I come, I'm done with this shit. You guys need to solve your own stuff, right?

Ed 00:12:04 Sure.

Kevin 00:12:05 And, but then, you know, I heard stories from the mom and dad that he was holding a knife against her throat. that he was threatening to jump out of the window with her and the kid, and, you know, so it was. Okay, so I, I was then planning to meet up with, with a friend of mine to go to, to into the city, you know, and, I told him, like, okay, I need to make a stop first at that place, you know, just see, because I did that, like, a hundred times already. So you don't think that he's gonna really get out of hand, right? And then I came there and, you know, so I came in the condo and yeah, everything was a complete mess. You know, he was out of this world. He was.

Kevin 00:12:42 So I told to Sarah, okay, you go in with the kid in the in the living room. I tried to calm him down. You know, so I tried to, talk about small stuff. I remember that at that moment. Mourinho. Jose Mourinho was the new coach of Manchester United. He was a United fan, right? So I tried to talk, to try to take the attention.

Ed 00:13:03 Away from him down. Right.

Kevin 00:13:04 Yeah. And then he started turning against us as well. So my friend who never met him was sitting next to me. And so he started attacking my friend. Well, at first he attacked me, but I said, okay, look, I'm not going to go anywhere. No, he ripped my shirt. He tried to hit me, so I said, okay, look, you can't hit me. I'm going to keep sitting here till the police is coming, because that's another thing. The police was what? We tried to call the police already for almost two hours.

Kevin 00:13:30 So the moment the police said, like, you know. Sorry, Miss Sarah, I have to call herself. That's only when we can come interfere. So she had no phone. She had a knife against her throat, but she had to call herself. So there was a little bit of a weird thing.

Ed 00:13:41 Right?

Kevin 00:13:42 Then he attacked my friend, you know, and we had to. Yeah, we had to, control him. So we controlled him, put him on the ground, try to control him. And then the police came. Finally came in. so then we stepped away. We went to sit in the sofa and, and the police was with his leg, like tipping, you know, and he was not moving anymore. So then we flipped him and we saw that he beat his pants. So, you know, somewhere in that thing, he probably get, oh, that's what we think from the autopsy, that he didn't get any air while we were controlling him.

Ed 00:14:13 Right? Oh, he he asphyxiated somehow.

Kevin 00:14:15 Yeah. And, but then the ambulance came in, and, you know, they they recovered him again because we were sitting there, and the machine was like. Like the heartbeat. Right. But very.

Ed 00:14:25 Slow. He woke up.

Kevin 00:14:26 Yeah. So we thought, okay, big relief. so the police asked me and my friend to come to the station to give some statements and, you know. But everything seemed fine. We were not handcuffed. We were, you know, the police was joking with us in the car. Sure. Yeah. Like, you know, also about football, you know. And like, it was very weird atmosphere. So we said, okay, we go give our statement and then finally we can go on to with our plans. So we were sitting in the station for a while in, in a big, in a long time station. Right. So that's a behind is one of the main stations. And then all of a sudden one of the officers came in and he said, your friend, he died.

Ed 00:15:06 Oh my God.

Greg 00:15:07 So I didn't save him.

Kevin 00:15:08 Yeah. So that's. So he died in the ambulance going back. So that's when everything started. That's when a real nightmare, started.

Ed 00:15:16 So they did not let you leave? At that point.

Kevin 00:15:20 in the station, because we we we set that whole night because then they called up one of the big inspectors. He came to, to the station, you know. Called him out of bed. He walked into the room. You immediately see that he was one of the big, big guys, right? And that was to to interview us about everything that happened. But in the station the entire night, the atmosphere was, I mean, never been put in a cell, never get handcuffed. You know, we had our phones, we had people around us to help, to translate. So I called my then ex-girlfriend to help translate. She's a big part of the book as well. And, until the morning we gave all the interviews and it was Friday to Saturday.

Kevin 00:16:03 So at a certain moment, it was like ten, ten, 10 a.m. or something. And, you know, we had to go to the court. Luckily, the court is open on a Saturday till 1230. Okay. So and the police said, look, for me, I understand, you know, I'm not gonna, how do you say I'm going to give a positive advice to get bail, but you guys have to go now. I mean, now because, you know, if, if you're too late, you're going to have to go to prison until Monday.

Ed 00:16:32 Or.

Ed 00:16:33 Over the weekend.

Kevin 00:16:33 Then you go to prison. And, so we had to sign a document. That's where mistake number one happened. So for everybody listening, I would really advise you to never sign a document without a lawyer present. But, you know, because for us, the mood was feeling cozy and everything seemed.

Ed 00:16:50 Yeah. You didn't know you were in any kind of trouble?

Kevin 00:16:52 Well, it was not looking good.

Kevin 00:16:54 You know that. Because some. But we didn't have the feeling like, okay, they really are out to get us.

Ed 00:16:58 But like you said, you were you.

Greg 00:16:59 Weren't in a cell or anything.

Ed 00:17:00 You weren't handcuffed.

Greg 00:17:00 You were just sitting there with your phone and talking to people.

Kevin 00:17:03 Yeah. So then, you know, we had to sign the document and, and, Apple, who was translating for us, she said, yeah, you know, the document is saying that you were in a fight and somebody died, which sounds about right, because that's what literally happened, right? So we said, okay, we signed the document. But what we didn't know at that moment is that we signed a manslaughter charge.

Greg 00:17:22 Oh, geez.

Ed 00:17:23 Yeah. Oh, so your translator did not do a great job well.

Kevin 00:17:27 But we can also not blame her. She's not a lawyer or.

Greg 00:17:30 She was just a civilian friend.

Kevin 00:17:31 She was my ex-girlfriend. So I mean.

Ed 00:17:34 Right.

Kevin 00:17:34 I was lucky enough to get her already because she did all the translation.

Kevin 00:17:37 And and that's one of the things that happened correctly. I mean, that that, that, the how do you say the interview. Right. The police, whatever he record, this is kind of evidence number one. Right. So that was done. Quite okay.

Greg 00:17:52 So it's one of those things where like it's technically the truth. Like, yeah, there was a fight in the guy died. Yeah. But there, you know in legal cases there's a lot more nuance and texture that needs to be considered. Yeah.

Kevin 00:18:01 So that was a and then we had to rush to the, to the, to the courthouse. So there's the first time I got we got handcuffed obviously because you know, you sit in that prison transport and there was a third guy. So we were with three guys cuffed to each other. Oh wow. And there was a Thai guy. And then the judge. So I was also a little bit weird. So we come in the courtroom, there was a big TV screen and the judge came on the screen.

Kevin 00:18:25 And so again, Apple was translating for us. So the judge quite quick said, okay, bail approved 200,000 baht each. it was then like, what, 12 ish? So we had 30 minutes to get the cash out. Oh, God. But I don't know if, you know Bangkok's, South criminal court. It's, Sharon Kroon, 63. There's nothing there. Nothing. So. And, you know, so we had a lot of people waiting outside, so they had to get the two times 200,000 baht out of ATMs. So they had to run everywhere.

Ed 00:18:57 Oh, you're like, you mean your friends were there? Yeah.

Kevin 00:18:59 Yeah, yeah, there were people.

Ed 00:19:00 That's pretty. That's rough.

Kevin 00:19:02 Yeah. And then. So. But, you know, an ATM in Thailand is 20,000 baht. 20,000 baht, 20,000.

Ed 00:19:07 Could be limit, right? Sure.

Kevin 00:19:08 So we had the first 200,000 baht rushed to court, said okay, here. This is for Kevin already. They went out again, taken 200,000 baht.

Kevin 00:19:16 But that was too late. So my friend, he did go to, the guy who was with me did go to Primm. Oh, wow. But, you know, at that time he said, like, hey, it's okay. You know, I always wanted to see inside how it looks like.

Greg 00:19:29 So it's a glass half full. Yeah. Right. Right, right.

Kevin 00:19:32 So, but I can tell you that because he got bailed, but he relied on us to get him out. And on Monday he was. I wrote it down in the book. He was getting quite scary. So he thought like, shit, those guys are keeping me inside. He. Right. So he put actually kind his fate in our hands. Luckily, we didn't have any bad intentions, so, you know. But it has a process you need to follow. But I can tell you, he was getting pretty nervous on Monday, right? and.

Ed 00:19:59 Then. But you got him out of it.

Kevin 00:20:00 Yeah, because the bail was already approved. Right. So it was just a matter of depositing the money because they wouldn't accept it anymore at that moment. and also, I mean, the reason that that I went out was because I had all the evidence on my body. My shirt was ripped. I was full of bruises. I got a bite mark on my arm, so we had to go record it, you know. So there's two things that I really need to advise everybody. One. Make sure you get a very good lawyer instantly. And number two. I mean, you need to be lucky with the people around you that they are clever enough to, to think of and type people. Surprisingly, it looks like it's standard protocol for them. You know, they are very switched on when something like this happens. I think I really like the.

Ed 00:20:40 You mean in terms of.

Kevin 00:20:41 Wanting to do, you know, like, okay, okay, Kevin, we have to go to the police station to record all those bruises.

Kevin 00:20:46 And we did that outside of the police. Right. And eventually that's all what was quite important.

Greg 00:20:52 Then you can say, oh, we also have all of this evidence to support.

Kevin 00:20:54 So they are like, you know, and then they're like all calling lawyers. And while you're sitting inside. So they are quite.

Greg 00:21:01 Well actually, it's because they show on their on TV, there's, there's just these like very graphic news programs that show crime and murder and mayhem, you know, over breakfast kind of thing. Right? Like when my mother in law was living with me, I'd come out and in the morning and I'd call it, oh, All I is watching. Who died last night? That's her favorite TV show.

Ed 00:21:20 Oh, geez.

Greg 00:21:21 You know.

Kevin 00:21:22 Yeah. And I also think that within their families, I mean, I always say that Thailand, we all love Thailand. That's why we're here. But I also believe it has a very dark underbelly. and things happen in families here.

Greg 00:21:35 Yeah. And as foreigners, we we don't see that.

Ed 00:21:38 Usually.

Greg 00:21:39 You know, the real the really graphic, seedy stuff. I think yeah, it's, it's, it's on a level that we don't really interact with.

Kevin 00:21:46 Yeah. And also because it's also a little bit Bangkok is a little bit different than I think the, the villages in the cities outside of Bangkok.

Ed 00:21:56 So you made bail which was good. And then what was what was the next step?

Kevin 00:22:00 The next step. You have a 84 day investigation. So seven days right. Yeah. 84, seven days of 12. No, seven times 12 days. That's when the investigator always is doing his investigation. And then he renews 12 days and renews. Okay, so if an investigation is done quick, it can be done after 12 days. Ours lasted 84 days. and then so we were kind of towards the ending of the 84 days because there's communication between the lawyers and the police. And so we were under the assumption that the prosecutor would lower the charge from manslaughter to negligence, which in our mind would have made more sense.

Kevin 00:22:45 Right. So we had no intention to to hurt him.

Greg 00:22:47 So the whole thing was just a terrible accident.

Kevin 00:22:50 Yeah, but that's how we saw it, right? So there's a and then, I was sitting in the office waiting for the phone call from the lawyer, and then the phone call came in and he said to me, like, Kevin, I don't have very good news. So I said, okay. Yeah. What? yeah. The prosecutor increased the charge to murder. Oh, my God, at that moment. So, you know, then I was standing in my yard, the feeling my legs became rubber. I had to sit down. I was like, shit. Everybody was sitting with us in the room. And then he said, but it's also a little bit good news. And I said, how can this be good news? Right? Well, it's easier to defend a murder charge than a manslaughter or a negligence charge, right. Because a murder charge, you need intent or a motif and you need a murder weapon.

Kevin 00:23:36 And like like you see in in the movies, in the series. So.

Ed 00:23:39 Right.

Greg 00:23:39 Okay. Interesting.

Ed 00:23:40 Now, you don't have to be specific, but what is your lawyer tie or a foreigner living in Thailand?

Kevin 00:23:46 Well, I'm not going to call him by name, but my the guy that I called was one of your previous guests on one of the podcasts, right. So. Yeah. So, and he worked for a big firm at that moment. But in Thailand, it works like that. A lawyer cannot represent you in court, so you have to have Thai lawyers.

Ed 00:24:05 Right in court.

Kevin 00:24:05 And one time. So our case, me and my friend, we we, we we did the same case. So we were in the same defense. But then on top of that, each defendant needs their own lawyer. So you cannot have one lawyer that defends both. So we have actually, so the forerunner in this case working for a firm, because you have a lot of lawyers here, they kind of act like the, like the sound board between the lawyers and yourself.

Kevin 00:24:35 So you can understand everything.

Ed 00:24:36 Right?

Kevin 00:24:37 But we were sitting with quite a big firm. So also the lawyers spoke very good English. You know, we had until a certain moment of the case, we had always translators next to us. Every document was translated. I mean, at that time we didn't have ChatGPT yet, which is unfortunate because the translation costs the fortune, I'm sure.

Ed 00:24:56 Right?

Kevin 00:24:56 No kidding. Yeah, but it's something that you need. I mean, you need to know what's going on. And that's also where the first thing happens, like you said, right? So a lot of people have horror stories. A lot of people have a good or a good. It's never a good experience. Right. But a more decent professional.

Ed 00:25:11 A professional experience.

Kevin 00:25:12 and that's one of the things already where the difference is if you don't understand what is going on.

Ed 00:25:18 Of course.

Kevin 00:25:19 Your experience drops already significantly, right? Because there's always fear. And at least we could see what was in the, in the, in the filings, what was in the, in the court ruling.

Kevin 00:25:31 So you kind of know what's going on, right. so yeah, that's again, I cannot say this enough. Go into depth, borrow money. But you need good lawyers. Really. I mean, you have to do everything that you can.

Greg 00:25:44 As a former lawyer.

Ed 00:25:45 Would you agreed. I would agree with that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. When I, when I was a lawyer and I worked, I worked for an appellate court. So we're working on the second layer. And, it's shocking how many legal problems are just caused by just kind of dumb mistakes, you know? So you're really, you're, you know, ends up being a ten year battle. And if if the contract had just been written properly, Then it's his whole thing. Never would have happened. Yeah. You know, like, a lot of things start kind of dumb with a few mistakes. That didn't have to happen. Yeah. So. Probably true. So anyway, so you find out the charges hired.

Ed 00:26:22 So when it becomes murder, like, do you. Then is your bail revoked? Like, how does that work?

Kevin 00:26:26 No, the bail increases, so.

Ed 00:26:29 You have to pay more.

Kevin 00:26:29 Yeah. So we went then from, there's two times it increased. So we went from 200,000 to 300,000 at a certain moment, and then from 300 to 500,000.

Ed 00:26:41 But you were able to stay out? Yes, yes. Okay. And then how long was it until. So you had to go to trial, essentially.

Kevin 00:26:47 Yeah. So the trial came like one and a half year later.

Ed 00:26:50 Oh, wow. Yeah. So during that period, did you. I mean, I'm just going to throw out some speculation. Were you ever thinking of. Maybe I should just dash over the border into Cambodia and, like, were you were you. I mean, you didn't do that, correct? That's not. No, I don't know the story.

Kevin 00:27:05 But my my friend did. So it's written down in the book.

Ed 00:27:07 Oh, okay. Your friend. Your friend bailed or bailed on the country?

Ed 00:27:11 Literally. He bailed on the bail. So we didn't get.

Kevin 00:27:14 That money back. So that's a no. So he was he was, he didn't believe in the justice system here, so he was very tense. I'm. It's a little bit, a sickness that I have. I'm extremely positive, all the time. You know, you have to really, it has to be really bad. I mean, it was very bad for me to. I always believe in a good ending, because I also believe that we didn't do anything wrong. Right? We were there. So after the the first ruling, we get, four years minus one for being, cooperative. Right? So.

Ed 00:27:46 Okay. But you're okay. I want to clarify. Your partner ran. So he was out of the case.

Kevin 00:27:51 Well, that's what I'm getting to. So we had the first, so we got convicted. So then we got bailed out again.

Kevin 00:27:57 And that's where he started believing. Even less in the case because the first conviction was.

Ed 00:28:03 So you were waiting for an appeal.

Kevin 00:28:04 Yeah. And then right before, like, 2 or 3 weeks before the appeal court ruling, that's when he, he escaped the country.

Ed 00:28:11 Wow. Gotcha. And then he's now out of the case. So there's no extradition. There's no attempt to bring him back.

Ed 00:28:17 Oh, he's.

Kevin 00:28:17 Still at, So we went all the way to the Supreme Court. At the Supreme Court? I also didn't get entirely cleared. I get, like, suspended sentence. but when I get that ruling, there was an arrest warrant for him. So he still got an outstanding arrest warrant.

Greg 00:28:31 So he can't come back to Thailand?

Kevin 00:28:34 I wouldn't advise it, but.

Ed 00:28:35 Maybe when.

Kevin 00:28:36 you know, you get cases expire.

Ed 00:28:38 The statute of limitations and things like that.

Kevin 00:28:40 But, I wouldn't advise it for him to do that pretty soon. But he didn't have, like, any Interpol.

Kevin 00:28:46 I mean, the Thai government.

Ed 00:28:48 Right.

Ed 00:28:48 Right, right.

Kevin 00:28:49 Also, because the case kind of with me still being here. Kinda settled. Right. So why.

Ed 00:28:54 Would.

Ed 00:28:54 They? Right. So were you able to stay out of jail the whole time while it was still.

Kevin 00:28:59 We we did a couple of days in holding cells and everything. When you I mean, when you convict it, you go to the cell again, then the lawyer need to bail you out again. And so we spent some like three different days in the holding cell at the court.

Ed 00:29:12 And so there was the first layer of appeal and then a second layer. So you went to the Supreme Court.

Kevin 00:29:18 We went all the way to the Supreme Court.

Ed 00:29:20 Yes. And so does that mean you lost in the appellate court as well.

Kevin 00:29:23 In the in the appeal court? We had three years minus one. So they reduced it.

Ed 00:29:29 By one year.

Ed 00:29:30 Yeah. Okay.

Kevin 00:29:30 So it's also a for me it looked a little bit like there is like a system right.

Kevin 00:29:34 That is slowly reduced reduce and but.

Ed 00:29:38 So you never thought of at that point when essentially you were looking at two years. Yeah. Did you ever think, hey, maybe I'll just do the two years and.

Kevin 00:29:46 Oh, absolutely. No no no no no. But I always said that. Look, if my biggest fear was getting kicked out of the country because we discussed it.

Greg 00:29:55 Your wife.

Kevin 00:29:55 Was here. Yeah. So I also because I followed everything that the court asked me to do. So one of the it's a little bit weird, but the moment that my friend ran, after the appeal court, I asked to go to Belgium to visit my family. And or. No, it was the first time was for work. And they allowed me to. Oh, wow. So I flew back two times, and then, of course, my entire family and friends, they asked me like, no, why? Why don't you just stay here, you know? And I said, no, I have to go back because, well.

Ed 00:30:28 That shows a lot of confidence in the Thai system.

Kevin 00:30:31 Yeah. No, but for me, it was one my life was here to the family from, is still my friend. Right. So his family would never get in closure if if both of us would run and the case stayed open. Right. And it must have been a nightmare for them as well. Yeah, because I still believe till this day that they never understood the result of the case because they didn't have the same type of lawyers. They had a lawyer, but I didn't see much communication between the lawyers. It's a stack of documents like this, you know. We got kind of everything translated. But I still believe till this day that they never get any document translated.

Ed 00:31:10 Now, what was the, the perspective. I'm sorry? What was hers? Sara. What was her name? What was her take on this whole thing? This must have been horrific for her. But was she in your corner defending you?

Kevin 00:31:20 Well, she she was one of the critical witnesses.

Kevin 00:31:23 So it's part. So, you know, you try to understand when the ruling, when the judge reads your ruling, you try to understand and catch words. But it's extremely difficult. But it's only in the Supreme Court that when the ruling came that the judge was always saying sera, sera, sera. And before it was in the book, we called him Ravi. It was always Ravi. Ravi. So then all of a sudden, we get the impression that, hey, the court finally understands who the real victim actually was in this case.

Ed 00:31:52 So essentially, her testimony was good for you.

Kevin 00:31:54 Yeah, absolutely. So she actually also I think she she she spent more than, than a full day on the witness stand. So it was an afternoon. And then the next day again before noon. So she was a critical witness or the critical witness because she was inside the room and everything as well.

Ed 00:32:09 Right. Right. Right. Right. So.

Greg 00:32:11 So what happened then? The Supreme Court came down with the final decision.

Kevin 00:32:18 it was actually a pretty crazy story as well, because it was with Covid, so the middle of Covid, so nobody could be in the room. So all my friends have to wait outside because I was lucky. I always had a big group of supporters that were in the room as well. And then there was a judge in training. So next to the judge was was an intern judge. And you know, so they had to follow protocol pretty pretty strict. And the Jets all of a sudden start talking to the how do you call it again. The clerk, not the clerk, but, the marshal. The court martial. So that's a police officer. And in Thai, she asked him from are you following proper protocol? But I couldn't understand anything. Right? So the guy. Oh, no. Yeah, because I'm training a judge here, you know, you have to do it properly. So he came to me and he started putting handcuffs around me. Oh, wow. And I thought, like shit because I didn't know.

Kevin 00:33:10 And also my lawyers didn't know what's going on because they didn't. And then the people were outside looking through a small window like they see the guy coming slapping the hand. But then the guy did like this, so he he tapped my hand and he said like, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ed 00:33:24 All right. Okay.

Kevin 00:33:25 So I said, what the hell is going on, you know? Because he can also say, sorry that you go to prison for.

Greg 00:33:30 Sorry about that.

Kevin 00:33:30 Yeah.

Greg 00:33:31 Sorry.

Ed 00:33:31 So you're saying protocol meant you had to be cuffed, even though it was.

Kevin 00:33:35 The moment that you step into that court because I was on bail. But the moment that you step in there for the judgment, you become a prisoner again. Right. So they have to just to make sense also just to make sure you're not running away. Because I could walk in and out of the court. Right. but that was for protocol. And then, you know, a long ruling. It was like super long.

Kevin 00:33:57 And, you know, I saw my one of my lawyers was standing in front of me, and he was holding his hands behind his back. I saw him always, like, very nervous, you know, playing with his robe. And I said, this is not going the right way. You know, and reading, reading. But we kept hearing Sarah's name. So that was very confusing. So we knew something was going on. And then, you know, I heard it again, like, okay, three, three years in prison. So there's a translator next to me. She's from the court. She's writing it down on a piece of paper, three years in prison. Okay, so that's it. And then all of a sudden, like an arrow below it in suspended sentence.

Ed 00:34:34 Boom, boom.

Greg 00:34:34 I'm curious about. What does that mean? Suspended sentence. It means, like, don't worry about it.

Ed 00:34:39 Well, it basically means he's convicted. Yeah, but you don't have to serve the.

Kevin 00:34:44 Time, okay? But, yeah, if you do anything wrong within that three years. So the judge say the lawyers made it very clear to me. You get arrested for drunken behavior or whatever, you go inside so that you really need to be on your best behavior. The good. I always say this as a good thing. It was in the middle of Covid, so for me, everybody was on a suspended sentence.

Ed 00:35:07 Right?

Kevin 00:35:07 Nobody could leave the country. Nobody could. Yeah. So it was the perfect timing.

Greg 00:35:12 So stay inside my my business.

Ed 00:35:14 And the three years now is over. Correct. So that period is now over.

Kevin 00:35:18 yeah. That's that's happened. 17th September 2024. oh 23. Sorry. And that's when the problem started with the visa. So, you know, and that was that was also a company coming out of Covid, everything going.

Ed 00:35:33 Well because you had a conviction. So that could affect your visa. That makes sense.

Kevin 00:35:36 Well, I think also that that they don't know how to deal with a case like mine or it's not very common, I think, because usually again, you have those drug cases, those guys sitting in prison, governments come between it.

Kevin 00:35:48 Right. So they then come, you know. They make an agreement to take you out. They get deported. It's a very straightforward system.

Greg 00:35:56 If you're waiting in jail in Thailand, as an expat, do you have to go to renew your 90 day check in?

Kevin 00:36:01 Well, that's one of the things. That's one of the things, actually you should. That's why a lot of those guys can never come back, because they are blacklisted already, because their visa never been a it's one of the things. No no no no, this is really true. This is really true because one of my one of the first things that my lawyer said, we need to make sure that visa stays okay. Wow. There were times that because your visa follows and work permit, by the way, your visa follows every important court date. So if there's a Monday, there's an important court date. Wednesday, there is another one. I had to go back that Monday to renew until that Wednesday. And then after that Wednesday again renew to the next.

Kevin 00:36:44 I was sitting, I get like 100 or 150 stamps in both my passport and work permit. Oh, wow. And the crazy thing is that a lot of times I had to get that work permit and passport done within the same day, or one of those would, expire.

Greg 00:36:58 Stressful.

Kevin 00:36:59 So yeah, it was. I spent so much time, stress.

Greg 00:37:01 Upon.

Kevin 00:37:01 Stress. I spent so much time in immigration that at a certain moment when I did my last stamp, the lady knew me so well already that she said to me so soon for the Supreme Court date. Oh, wow. That's how good they knew my case. You know, it's like so.

Ed 00:37:16 So so it is. It's actually not a totally happy ending because you you have the conviction on your record.

Kevin 00:37:23 Well, but that's also I mean, I'm back here so I'm not sure. Yeah. And I think also while I was sitting on the, suspended sentence, there came an article in the Bangkok Post. But I never really followed up on that, that people with suspended sentences or sentences below one year, it would automatically go from their criminal record.

Kevin 00:37:44 Oh, nice. Yeah. That's one of the rules that they did. Because, you know, there were so many people in jail for a little bit of weed or that or that, and they don't get any chance anymore, right? So suspended sentence, it doesn't come on your,

Ed 00:37:56 Oh. That's great.

Kevin 00:37:57 Yeah. And then I had I did have a blacklist, but that's automatically that you get a blacklist because it's actually more like an outgoing blacklist. So do make sure that you stay here. And I was fortunate enough that I had friends that helped me clearing that blacklist in the court.

Ed 00:38:12 so that means you can leave and return?

Kevin 00:38:15 Yeah. But let's see. Okay. So then actually. But that happened while I was in Belgium, that we cleared it. before I, before my three years were finished, it was like, no immigration said, no, no, this is not gonna work. You know, you're never gonna get, it's going to be very complicated. Nobody could give me the explanation.

Kevin 00:38:33 Right? And that's that's sometimes a little bit frustrated here is that nobody can give you a clear answer. Right? Or a document like, hey, look here, it's done. It's also that blacklist. So I got it cleared and I had two different people checking that. They said, yeah, but you know, they don't let me take a picture or a screenshot from the screen. You just have to, you know, you have to believe it. So and that's very bad. So I flew in and, I came on the immigration here and very I scared like, okay, it was exciting. Can I go back in or not? It was a big test. Come on. That desk. And the girl takes my passport and, you know, all my documents. And all of a sudden, I see her waving to the superior, and I think, oh, shit, this is done. And, but it was because she didn't understand something in the system. Because everything changed with, with that, what is it? The.

Greg 00:39:25 Oh, the the, digital. Yeah.

Kevin 00:39:27 Entry, the document, the entry document that you need. So everything changed. Oh, I see, so she was like, having questions about the system. And luckily, I still understand enough Thai to, So I was like, okay. And then she asked, do you have your outgoing ticket? And that's also a good thing that I did because I was thinking the day before like, okay, what can go wrong? Right? So yeah, okay, you probably need an outgoing ticket as well. So right before I boarded the plane, I booked it outgoing ticket. And then I came here and that was the last missing document that I needed to get in. So I had it. So, you know.

Ed 00:40:00 Wow.

Kevin 00:40:01 Wow. I made a decision right before boarding.

Greg 00:40:03 Mad man. There's nothing more stressful than waiting in line for something official in Thailand. And then they call their superior over. Yeah, I can't imagine, like, with the added layers of bureaucracy in the history of your case.

Greg 00:40:13 Like it must have been so stressful.

Kevin 00:40:14 Yeah, yeah. So and you know, also when at the end of the three, I had to come back to your previous question so nobody could help me here. Right. So I said, okay, everything lost, company gone I really I really I canceled Thailand out of my mind already at that moment that I came back and I called the embassy and they said, like, Kevin, you know, you need to watch out now because what normally the process is if your sentence. Because it is a sentence finish. The police is going to come and take you from your home or your office, and they will bring you to two in blue. You know, that's the ice from, from Thailand, where all the deportees. And it's actually worse conditions than prison.

Greg 00:40:56 It's a detention centre.

Kevin 00:40:57 Yeah. The detention. And it's worse than prison.

Greg 00:41:00 They used. I used to be immigration back in the day. That's for immigration.

Kevin 00:41:03 But there's people sitting for years just stuck because they have nobody that helps them, not their embassy.

Kevin 00:41:07 And. And the process is that they bring you there. They're going to help you book a ticket. So what happens is that they're going to say, okay, your ticket 40,000. But so you probably even make profit on it, right. So right. Right. And my embassy is set from try to get out before that. Try to be ahead of that because nobody knows when you get out you will get out. But it can take a few days. It can take a week because you have to book the ticket through them. So then I went to the probation office because every six months I had to go to the probation office and they said, okay. Yeah. Perfect behavior. You know, like but fine. So they stamped it. I went to the court. I asked them to leave one day earlier. So, because I really missed my family, that was the explanation. And they said, okay, no problem. So they stamped it. And then I went to the airport myself on, that 17 in the morning.

Kevin 00:41:55 And that was also very stressful because we didn't know that's the right way to do it. But I went through the immigration, everything perfectly fine, people very friendly because you have to go on a different calendar so they see it. Yeah, you have to go aside. But they are I mean, really, I don't have any bad experience with, through this entire from the court.

Ed 00:42:16 And this is great.

Kevin 00:42:17 Not there are some things that are annoying and they are bothering, the system. How a trial goes here is also very unique. So.

Greg 00:42:27 But, I mean, I mean, the whole experience was obviously terrible and tragic and.

Kevin 00:42:31 Yeah, that's that's not.

Ed 00:42:32 That's the problem. The bottom line is you showed a lot of faith in the Thai system when you didn't have to. So you hadn't you had an opportunity to get out or stay in Belgium. You decided to put your faith in the Thai system, and in the end, it turned out like it. Close to perfect justice. Yeah, maybe perfect justice would have been not like.

Ed 00:42:51 Yeah, yeah. So in your mind, it wasn't quite perfect, but it sounds like it was pretty damn good.

Kevin 00:42:57 It's the spirit, the way that people treat you, right. So I can give you an example from this. When I was in the holding cell, we came in, you know, and I was. I was alone at that time already. Not with my friend anymore. So I was wearing a suit. So you need to take everything off, right? So. So I started undressing, you know, and, I'm trying to take my boxer shorts out because the first time we had to do that, and the guy, he recognized me from before, and he said, oh, it's okay. You know, I trust you, I trust you. So I said, okay, great. Yeah. Pull the boxer shorts back on. You know, it's, so. But then there I was, sitting an hour or two in the cell. There were 3 or 4 Burmese guys coming in and, you know, I saw how they get treated.

Kevin 00:43:38 Trust me. Then you should be very happy because the guys, you know, they had to go sit on their knees. One of the guys wasn't. You know, he maybe didn't understand immediately what happened. So the. So the guard he hit him on the on the, on his head like, oh wow. You know, they had to kneel there too. So I was sitting there like, whoa I dodged a serious bullet here to. Sure, sure. So there is like and and yeah, it's it's it's it's like you see on the street, you know, when you are a foreigner here, people are smiling at you. They are very friendly at you. That also goes, in my experience, in the court. So that's.

Ed 00:44:11 Interesting. That's good news. And so it's obviously an incredible story. And then when it was all over, obviously you decided to write this. Yeah. This thing right here, which is what we're.

Greg 00:44:20 Talking.

Ed 00:44:21 About.

Greg 00:44:21 Yeah. Yeah a lot more detail in there.

Ed 00:44:22 How long did it take you to write the whole book?

Kevin 00:44:26 Well, I had the there was a Canadian, by the way, a Canadian guy. I think I can say his name. Kent. Wiley. I don't know if you know him.

Ed 00:44:33 Sure, I know who he is.

Kevin 00:44:34 Yeah. So he he told me even before this happened already, he always said, wow, Kevin, you need to write a book. Because I was going through a lot of company issues and, you know, trying to be the young entrepreneur, trying to make it in China. And then this came on top of that. So people kept telling me how you really need to start writing it down. So I started writing it when I was still going through the case because, you know, it's a lot of.

Ed 00:44:59 All the notes, all the information makes sense.

Kevin 00:45:01 So first I, I hired somebody on Upwork because I saw a profile, I wrote Netflix shows and everything. So I was a little bit sold.

Kevin 00:45:08 I said, okay, this is exactly what I need. it didn't work out well because he never came to Thailand, nor does she, as she was a woman. And people said, this doesn't sound like you. You know, Thailand, you need to feel you need to have been here to understand the smell, the the colors, the vibe, you know? And then I met James. So he's the guy that I wrote it with in the Writers club. so I came there and I said, yeah, I need to finish my story. Immediately, the entire meeting, all the writers listening to it, and he said, look, I write it with you, you know. And so we started writing. Then it was like, 2 or 3 years ago. That's when we really started writing. Very intense. And then it took us a six months, kind of six months to write the entire book.

Greg 00:45:53 Wow.

Kevin 00:45:54 Feedback is very good. I mean.

Ed 00:45:56 And it's it's for sale right now on Amazon.

Ed 00:45:59 On Amazon.

Kevin 00:45:59 Fortunately, we don't have hard copies here yet. We're trying to figure it out how to do it because Amazon prints them on demand, which is good because you don't have any upfront investment, because you don't need to order 10,000 books in there sitting here in the room.

Ed 00:46:12 Right, right right right right.

Kevin 00:46:13 So that's a good thing. But we are looking into other ways as well because it's it's tough also because shipping to Thailand takes a little bit longer time. It goes quite fast because it's like 4 or 5 days. You have the book here.

Ed 00:46:25 Well, I love the I love the idea because the the cliche Thai prison story is, you know, like the Hollywood movie is people who get totally screwed over and end up in prison for ten years, and then.

Greg 00:46:38 They literally made movies about that.

Kevin 00:46:40 Maybe there maybe before Dawn was the last one.

Ed 00:46:43 Yeah. I mean, maybe there's justice at the end, but it's just a nightmarish thing. And I would say your story is scary.

Ed 00:46:51 Yeah, but you seem to avoided the worst. You avoided the nightmarish stuff, luckily.

Kevin 00:46:57 But that was also the entire goal of the book. We didn't want to. We didn't say it in the opening word. It's not your typical story that. And it's actually funny because a lot of people told me I'm a writer writing a book. You never really went to prison. That's right. People don't want to read it. But the book is the book is good enough to me. And it's also because it's it's two timelines. So it's a timeline for me moving here in 2009 and really walking you through my experience on how to come here. As a young guy, we talk about the red shirt protests, so we pull in those things as well, a little bit like a travel book. But then the next timeline is that that hard part, that hard core go to prison and there's a prison story in there so people don't have to worry because I got another friend and he he's, he our cases were synchronized, but he was inside prison and I was out.

Kevin 00:47:48 Oh wow. So I also went to his, he's he's his first, ruling, because, you know, we wanted to see how everything was going because we didn't have a ruling at that time yet. And so I saw it. I saw both sides. I mean, we were we were actually here, two defendants screaming at the gate to him while he was standing in that orange jumpsuit and, shackles around his ankles. So we have also that contrast in there so people don't have to worry there is some prison in there.

Greg 00:48:18 Well, it seems the big takeaway then is, is don't do anything without a lawyer.

Kevin 00:48:22 Yeah. That's really I mean, I was at a rotary event last week and I said the same there. I mean, go into depth, try to do everything, set up a fundraiser, but don't skip that part because you really that's where those bad experiences happen. And there's another thing just don't do drugs, right. But that's what we all say. But but that's the I mean the drugs but don't sell it or whatever it is.

Kevin 00:48:45 Right. Don't don't get caught with that because then you really that's they don't laugh with that. That's not,

Greg 00:48:50 The drug cases.

Kevin 00:48:51 Yeah. Then you don't get bail. You can forget it. Right. Because you're a flight risk instantly because those people. Right. And then you're sitting on prem and then you sit in those horrible conditions, and then it can never be good, because how can it be good if you're sitting in a room with 40 people sleeping on the floor on a square meter? Because that's still the reality in prison here, right?

Ed 00:49:10 Absolutely.

Kevin 00:49:10 Yeah, absolutely. That's one of the things that I did at night. I was everything that was online on Google from prison I saw. So there was a moment also that the, the prison in Lancashire won the cameras from the prison get hacked. So it was on YouTube like a live stream. Oh, wow. I was I was the one who then sent two cow shots, under a fake name from. Hey, that prison thing is hacked, right? Because I didn't want to get connected to it.

Kevin 00:49:37 Oh, right. Something needs to be done. So they then posted it. It was taken offline like an hour after. And that story got into the New York Post and all the thing because you really saw the conditions in prison.

Ed 00:49:49 So you were trying to prepare yourself in case you ended up.

Kevin 00:49:51 Oh yeah. I knew if I read all the books, you know, you get that guy, there's one foreigner, David McMillan or something. He's the only foreigner ever that escaped from prison here.

Greg 00:50:02 Yeah, I read.

Kevin 00:50:02 It, and it's like 30 or 40 years ago. He was a smuggler. Drug smuggler? He tells it with a lot of pride. By the way, if you see his podcast.

Ed 00:50:09 Well, there also was the the sad sack. Who? The Australian guy who wrote the novel. He wrote a novel that was totally fictional. But then he got busted for lese majesté. Majesty. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And he ended up in prison and his sentence got under.

Ed 00:50:25 He got pardoned, but he had to leave the country. Yeah. And that story is a is a nightmare.

Kevin 00:50:30 Yeah, but it is. I can imagine it's not fun of being in there. That's because the guy I didn't know, he was then later, exchanged with friends. He had to do six months there because the agreement is that you actually have to sit your sentence that you got here, but convert it to the local sentence. So meaning if you get 36 years here for smuggling 100g, whatever it is in France it would only be four years or so. Then you.

Ed 00:50:57 Give you the they give you the.

Kevin 00:50:58 The reduced sentence, but you still need to do it. Sure. So then if you still need to do six months, you still. That's the agreement that they make with Thailand, right.

Greg 00:51:04 It's the worst conversion rate ever.

Ed 00:51:06 Yeah.

Kevin 00:51:07 And then I talked to him afterwards and he said like giving if I could bum that entire country I would. So he got so I mean he got really damaged by what happened inside prison.

Kevin 00:51:18 I don't know what happened inside, but the conditions were so bad. He said if I could bomb the entire country, I would. Wow. I mean, to say something like that, you.

Ed 00:51:25 Mean must be speaking of Thailand. You mean.

Kevin 00:51:27 Yeah. He said if I could bomb that entire time, I would. Because he said it's it's it's human rights violation. Front and.

Ed 00:51:34 Center. I told you not to claim I'm always right. But we did. We did a goofy show where I listed ten things I would do if I was Thai Prime minister. And one of my things is build a modern prison system because the system is so unfair. Like, once you get in there, like you said, it's massive human rights violations. So that was on my list.

Kevin 00:51:53 But yeah, they take some steps already, right? Because you get the ankle bracelet, the the monitors now. And you know, in prison it's also not a walk in the park anymore.

Ed 00:52:04 Overcrowded old.

Kevin 00:52:05 Sure, sure.

Kevin 00:52:06 Yeah. So the conditions are not far off anymore, but you get maybe a little bit better food and everything. But those prisoners are also cramped in small rooms together, so it's not a.

Ed 00:52:15 No.

Kevin 00:52:15 Doubt. Prison still is prison.

Ed 00:52:17 It's a prison. Yeah, yeah.

Greg 00:52:18 Yeah.

Kevin 00:52:18 Yeah. There's some countries in Europe that do it very good where you look like you're sitting in a hotel.

Ed 00:52:23 Well, yeah. Well, if you, if you're Jeffrey Epstein, then you get the hotel room, right? Right, right, right. But other other than.

Kevin 00:52:29 But then you need to watch out because then there's prisoners next to you that can kill you, right? Apparently. So that's.

Greg 00:52:36 Well, Kevin, thanks a lot for that story, man. And there's there's a ton more detail in here. It goes into.

Kevin 00:52:40 It's yeah, it's I mean not to promote it too much, but it's, it's a it's a good story.

Ed 00:52:46 I'm sorry I want to I want to read it.

Greg 00:52:47 Yeah yeah yeah. It's great. Well, I'm glad to see you out in the free world. Yeah. And thank you. It's a it's a terrible thing that happened, but I'm glad that that everything worked out in your favor, and, Yeah, for sure, you were a rule of law guy.

Ed 00:52:59 So I'm a rule of law guy, and it sounds like justice was almost done 100%, so. Yeah.

Greg 00:53:04 So where can people follow you, learn more about you get the book.

Kevin 00:53:08 The book is on Amazon. and the podcast and, and and all the channels will have the same name. Kingdom of trials.

Ed 00:53:16 Kingdom of trials.

Greg 00:53:16 Kingdom of.

Ed 00:53:17 Trials. I like.

Greg 00:53:17 The names. The case?

Kevin 00:53:18 Yeah, because the name is, It's not only the trial. Trial, but also the trials of living in the kingdom. So it's a little bit more than just.

Greg 00:53:27 A double double entendre there.

Ed 00:53:28 I like it.

Greg 00:53:29 Yeah, yeah. Kevin, thanks so much, man. Great to talk to you.

Ed 00:53:31 Good. Thank you. Thanks.

Ed 00:53:45 Man, I really enjoyed doing that. It's cool to try out video. also his story I actually is unique. It's not actually the I mean, obviously, it's just weird. I mean, he's involved in a situation where someone died, which, you know, that's unique. But as, as we discussed with him, just the way the whole thing played out is not what a lot of people would have expected to happen. You know, in the end, justice was more or less done.

Greg 00:54:12 Yeah. And I think his story, as terrible as it was, could probably have taken place in a lot of other countries, maybe not as slick or as quickly or like there was definitely some hiccups that might not have happened in the West, but. Right. But it was a fairly straightforward case as far as these terrible things go. You know, like there wasn't some terrible, like Double crossing or.

Ed 00:54:38 Yeah, it was.

Greg 00:54:39 Scandal or.

Ed 00:54:40 Something. Again, obviously we talked about it in the interview, but in a way it was kind of handled pretty professionally.

Ed 00:54:45 I mean, I think as foreigners, there's just the constant paranoia that you're misunderstanding something. So it's it's, even though it kind of ended up being handled properly, I'm sure it was incredibly stressful. I mean, I can't imagine I can't imagine being in that situation and and just not knowing and the temptation to to run and not come back. And the fact that he. You know. The fact that he was able to leave the country and then chose to come back. I mean, it just shows so much confidence in the system. But but but it paid off. You know, that's why they agreed that. That's why this is a great story like that. Like this story has to get out there like, this is a part of the reason why you and I wanted to do this interview in the first place.

Greg 00:55:28 Right. And we always talk about this like we love good cop stories. Like when the cops in Thailand are helpful, right? Or go above and beyond. And this is this is that story from two different angles.

Greg 00:55:39 Like, first of all, the justice system worked as written. I mean, maybe it's Thailand. Justice system doesn't work like we're used to or like we want to, but there are still rules that play out and have to play, right? That's right. But also it shows. It shows, you know, a guy with a lot of integrity and a lot of a lot of belief in Thailand that. That's right. He like you said, he could have just not come back. But he loves it here. He believes in how things work here. And he let things play out as they as they would have normally and as they did.

Ed 00:56:08 Yeah. and it also the, the other how do I explain this is that you and I were you and I were chatting before we started recording about how sometimes we, we read about expats in Thailand who just have these experiences that you and I have no relation to. Like, we just, we like that never happened to us. We don't know.

Ed 00:56:30 And there's just another part of Thailand that we've never been which could be good. And like his story is like that. It's just like I've, I've barely interacted with the Thai justice system. Like, luckily it's good. So I just don't know that world. I, you know, I've never been arrested like I've never I just even even I've never had, close friends get sucked in, which might also suck me in, where I'm like, oh, I gotta go to court, my buddy. You know, I've just never I've never had to go to court. and you're like, I'm a lawyer. I'm an American lawyer. But in Thailand, I've just avoided the entire justice system, you know, again, which is probably good. And so. So that's why it's great to hear from another long term expat who is just having this whole experience that's beyond our, our our scope.

Greg 00:57:17 Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And I'm glad it worked out for him. And he's back now.

Greg 00:57:20 This is his home like it is for you and I. So anyway, thanks. Thanks, Kevin, for coming on. It was really, really great to talk to you. A great story, and thanks for having us down to your studio for sure. yeah. The book, Kingdom of Trials Murder Was the case a true story. It came out in the beginning of September. So it's it's out now. It's on Amazon. you can buy the Kindle version. You can buy the hardcover version. You can buy the paperback version. check it out. And, I'm looking forward to reading it. It might take me a while because as we've said before on the show, man, I read so slowly these days, but, it sounds like a really, really compelling story. And again, Kevin, thanks for coming on and telling us telling us how it works.

Ed 00:57:55 Absolutely. Thank you. Kevin. So as we mentioned at the beginning of the show, we'd like to say thank you to George for letting us his support at the show, shadow level.

Ed 00:58:03 And Greg, what did you find out about George?

Greg 00:58:06 Well, I had a few emails back and forth with our new pal George, and it seems like an interesting guy. He's a little bit older than we are, but he is still coming back to Thailand regularly to to to to adventure, rise and explore, which is really cool. And it's going to be funny because as I mentioned in the intro at the beginning, we're going to get him out on a bike ride, but it's going to be a pretty funny bike ride. So let me just read the message he sent here. He said, my wife and I started going to Bangkok once per year a few years ago. I could say we love the culture of Bangkok, but that sounds too formal. It's more of a vibe that resonates the energy positivity food markets, because we all know what he's talking about there. I am one of those old white guys with a beautiful Asian woman on my arm, but we've been together since we met as university students in Kingston, Ontario, and we're now seniors in California.

Greg 00:58:53 My Laos born, culturally North American wife is mostly amused by the fisheye puzzlement she sometimes gets from locals trying to figure her out. our first two times in Bangkok, we stuck together most of the time. But on our third annual visit in 2025, we started heading in different directions, a little more walking around for one of us and a little more shopping for the other. The highlight of my independent exploration were the Voice Map tours. So thanks for introducing to me to those. Great. Those are the tours that I do right on the side there, the GPS guided tours. So a little shout out for myself there. now here, here's what he says about the bicycle. I wish I could explore this city by bicycle, but I'm not that brave anymore. Even though I was the nut growing up in Canada who would cycle in a snowstorm. I don't bounce as well as I used to, so as a substitute, I'll be bringing a £10 folding kick scooter to extend my range and make the dreary sections go by quicker.

Greg 00:59:44 Fingers crossed to this is not a terrible idea. Thank you for such a wonderful podcast and the tips for avoiding demerit points. So. So I told George, I said that sounds great. And it's funny because I've got another friend named Gary who's about the same age as George and Gary just recently He bought one of those folding bicycle bikes. The kind of funny little tie wheels. And Gary's hooked up a bunch of cameras to this thing, so he's driving around all over Bangkok. So I thought, George, why don't you join? So I'll be out in front with my my big mountain bike. Gary will be behind me with his sort of, like, half little bike with his tiny wheels. And George will be behind Gary on his little scooter. So I called it the Goldilocks ride. Like there's Papa Bear, Mama Bear, and Baby Bear rolling down the street.

Ed 01:00:28 It would be a rare case where you might actually look the coolest of the three.

Greg 01:00:34 Well, we haven't met George. We haven't seen his skills on a scooter.

Greg 01:00:36 Maybe he'll be like. He'll be, like, going up on the curb and doing jumps and bunny hops and stuff off the off the pavement. You never know. But thanks for writing, George, and thanks for your support. That's really cool. We're glad the are getting some usefulness out of the out of the podcast, and let us know when you're in town with your scooter in tow.

Ed 01:00:53 For sure. Thank you George. Alrighty, a final thanks to our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. We're Bangkok podcast on social media Bangkok podcast. Com on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages.

Greg 01:01:22 That's right. Now check out each episode on YouTube. You can send us a voice mail to your website. We'll feature that on the show.

Greg 01:01:28 Hit me up on blue Sky where I am Luke Gray. Thank you for listening, everyone, and I'll see you back here next.

Ed 01:01:32 Week.

Ed 01:01:33 For sure.