Phra Pandit Joins to Discuss the Mixing of Monks and Politics [S7.E69]

Greg 00:00:04 Now on this episode, we chat with Prop Panda to talk about why monks can't become politicians.

Ed 00:00:11 So if you're curious about what the Buddhist said about politics and how it works in the modern world, you'll dig this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg 00:00:37 And welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Thailand in 2001 because I really love long flights but never went home because it turns out I love mango and sticky rice even more.

Ed 00:00:48 Who doesn't?

Greg 00:00:50 Yeah.

Ed 00:00:50 Good stuff. And I met Knuth, an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract 24 years ago, fell in love with seeing foreigners behaving badly and thinking at least that's not me. So I never left.

Greg 00:01:03 Pretty low bar to clear, but it does feel nice.

Ed 00:01:05 It makes me. It makes me feel good about myself when I see, you know, drunk British hooligans, you know, getting in fights in front of 7-Eleven at 3 a.m. in Pattaya.

Greg 00:01:14 Right. Exactly. Or even just someone walking down the street with a shirt off down Sukhumvit, like, come on, hippy, put your shirt on.

Ed 00:01:19 Yeah, it makes me feel good about myself. It's weird. It's where my self-esteem comes from.

Greg 00:01:24 It's the small wins that add up.

Ed 00:01:27 We want to give a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get every episode a day early. Behind the scenes photos of our interviews. It heads up to send questions to upcoming guests and access to our discord server to chat with me, Greg, and other listeners around the world. But best of all, patrons also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week where we riff on current events and Bangkok topics. On this week's bonus show, we chatted about Bangkok's Imax cinemas and the tricky language they used to classify themselves as Emacs. The limitations of AI platforms that seem pretty cool on first inspection, but are actually quite underwhelming when trying to decode Bangkok, at least live yet another strange trend as Thais try to defy aging, and a discussion on a new law that will apparently allow Bangkok's government to act better, faster and more transparently when improving the city.

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Greg 00:02:33 Oh yeah, and as a quick shout out, we want to give two shout outs actually to, First of all, our friend Peter. I met up with him last week at iconsiam for some food, and he helped me out with an issue I was trying to solve. And second to Vassili, who heard Ed and I say on a recent show that we've never had Russian food, and he graciously took us out for some delicious borscht, parmesan and blinis and great coffee as well. Once again proving that we have the most awesome group of listeners around.

Ed 00:02:58 No doubt about that. Thank you. Vasily.

Greg 00:03:01 Yeah. And Peter, two good times. All right. On this episode, we welcome back our old buddy, our old pal, the venerable prop pandit. We had a lovely lunch last week, and afterward, we're able to sit down for a chat.

Greg 00:03:14 A year ago, back in season one, I remember Tony and I asked propounded if monks could wear jeans if they were dyed orange. Spoiler alert probably not. And we always enjoy posing these hypotheticals to Prop Bandit. But this time, seeing as how politically things in many places around the world are getting a bit dicey. I wanted to ask him, can a monk become a politician? Are there any rules against a Buddhist leader becoming a political leader if he's still wearing the ropes? Another spoiler alert. Also, the answer is probably not, but there's a lot of nuance in here. The Buddha himself said a lot about politics and monks involvement in politics, and we continue talking about where and why these lines are drawn and if we will ever see Thailand being managed by a Prime Minister. So here is my conversation with our friend. Prop pendant.

Greg 00:04:10 Well, we are sitting here back with our friend Prop Pandit, the most returning guest on the Bangkok podcast. I know you don't like me to say that, but it's true.

Greg 00:04:18 I was just looking back on the website the other day and you were on like episode ten. I think of season one, so that's a long time. You've been gracing us with your insight and presence. So welcome back to the Bangkok Podcast.

Phra Pandit 00:04:30 It's a pleasure to have me here.

Greg 00:04:33 Well, one of the reasons that, that I thought it'd be good to have you back on today was because I think everyone is watching the news online around the world. And it seems to me over the past five, six, seven, eight years, politics has gotten really nasty. And I think it's backsliding in a lot of ways, in a lot of areas. but thankfully, maybe ironically, Thailand seems to be in a bit of a lull right now. Maybe the eye of the storm, or maybe things have finally sorted themselves out. I don't know. But things here seem pretty stable, which is good. but elsewhere in the world, things are not stable. And previously, when you've been on the show, we've talked about basically the episode can be boiled down to Can monks do X, ride bicycles, wear jeans, dance, you know, things like that.

Greg 00:05:23 the frivolous little questions, but they hinted something deeper.

Phra Pandit 00:05:27 Weird how? That's endlessly fascinating to people. It is.

Greg 00:05:31 Can you us laymen put monks and monk hood on such a pedestal that, It's funny when you find out that.

Phra Pandit 00:05:38 Without standing up.

Greg 00:05:41 Well, I was thinking maybe what some of these Western countries need is a good injection of of Buddhist calmness into the proceedings. And I was wondering if monks could get into politics. Now we've seen the crossover between businessmen get into politics. I mean, Donald Trump is president. we've seen military men get into politics. The names are endless. we've seen, I guess religious leaders get into politics, too, in Western countries. But I don't know if that is a thing in eastern countries, in Thailand, in Buddhism. So let's start there. Can monks become politicians while they are monks?

Phra Pandit 00:06:23 No.

Greg 00:06:24 All right. Thank you for coming.

Phra Pandit 00:06:25 Great to talk to you. So the monks live by what's called the Vinaya, which is the monks rules. If you're around in Thailand, you may come across this word Vinaya, and it gets applied to other things than monks.

Phra Pandit 00:06:42 So Vinaya jargon, traffic rules and regulations. Oh, okay. So again, I mean, it comes from the veneer. And this is the code of conduct that the Buddha laid down for his Sangha, for his followers. He laid these rules down one by one as something happened. So the original set of rules were only, I think, eight. And then one by one, more and more things got added, as usually as somebody did something wrong. And then the Buddha said, okay, from now on, this is this new rule that you all have to follow. So the rules got added organically. Some of them, we don't know what they mean. Some of them had a meaning that's no longer applicable. Some of them had a meaning, but we no longer follow for practical reasons. For example, we have a rule. Monks should not travel in any vehicle unless you are sick. Oh, so you talk about bicycles? Technically. Planes, cars, buses, trains, anything we can't travel in? Obviously we don't really follow that rule.

Phra Pandit 00:07:52 so one of the some of the rules they would have laid down were regarding monks getting involved in political affairs or as it would appear in the suit, is local governance, because there wasn't really governments as we know it in bureaucracies and very explicitly. The Buddhists said the monks are not permitted to get involved in any local governance or any judging or any courts or anything like that. Specifically said that you were banned from doing so, even to the point that you're not supposed to express an opinion really, on things. Yeah, but in Thailand this is very much followed because monks, people expect monks to be above politics. We're supposed to represent the sun and bone and the pinnacle of human experience, enlightenment and so not get involved in local affairs.

Greg 00:08:50 Interesting. But if you're not supposed to have opinions. I mean, where is the line between having an opinion and and saying this is good and bad? That's an opinion. But it's an opinion driven by the official rules of the hood.

Phra Pandit 00:09:02 Well, I guess you can have an opinion.

Phra Pandit 00:09:04 I mean, nobody can open your skull up and check whether you have opinions or not or what they would do these days is go through your social media post and find 11 years ago you wrote this comment. So that means that you're a fascist. Now. So of course you have opinions, but you're not supposed to express them or get involved in society. You're not supposed to get caught between political parties. One example of this was at the time of the Buddha. His hometown was on one side of the river, and the town on the opposite side had its own governance. But they were all intermarry, and they were very closely connected. But there came a time when the river dried up. So they started to fight over the water rights. Okay. And then the, the two armies, they've both formed a militia or an army. And they came to clash and fight. And the Buddha went to the sat in between the two armies. So when they came to fight, he was sat there meditating between them.

Phra Pandit 00:10:11 And both sides respected him. So they actually parted without fighting and settled their disputes in other ways. another time the, larger kingdom of the area came to attack his home city, and again he sat between the armies. But the tree that he sat under was on his home side rather than the attacking army side. And I think he said, if I get the quote right, he said, the the shade of one's relatives is cooler. Now, what that means, I don't know, Here's a cool line. And so the armies actually parted three times. And then on the fourth day when they came to fight, he didn't sit between them and he left them to fight and his home city actually got annihilated. Oh, so he would be a confidant of many of the kings, kings and queens and royal families and wealthy people. But he very deliberately, specifically wouldn't get involved himself.

Greg 00:11:11 Interesting. It's it's it's funny how those old rules have, like you said, have been some of them are just not followed anymore, or some of them are ignored just for simplicity's sake.

Greg 00:11:21 And the way technology and society has evolved, like traveling, you know. Now it's pretty, pretty essential for for monks to travel. But why hasn't that rule been changed or evolved along with the other ones? Because politics has also evolved a great deal over the past 2000 years.

Phra Pandit 00:11:40 So in Thailand some years ago and maybe still bubbling under the surface. You had the what we could vaguely call red versus yellow. political science. It's changed a lot with the big shots in Thailand. Who who can switch sides quite suddenly and, one minute, hating each other. The next minute they're like, yeah, nothing to see here.

Greg 00:12:03 It's like watching an old WWF between Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant or something.

Phra Pandit 00:12:07 So, at that time. The Sanga was probably leaning towards the red side. And this is because you have more monks in the north and the northeast than you do in central in southern Thailand. Okay, so most of the monk hood would be built up out of people from the north and the north east, and obviously they bring their political preferences with them.

Phra Pandit 00:12:34 So I just said, if the country was 60, 40 at the time, the monk hood was probably 70. 30. But I. Within the monasteries, generally speaking, the monks wouldn't bring politics up too much because they don't want to alienate each other. And I think the the bond or the commonality of being monks together in a monastery is stronger than their political affiliations. Okay. So at the time of the Thailand's political battles, for the most part the monks stayed out of it. In private, if you talk to them, they may have a preference, but they wouldn't be using the temple resources, for example, and they wouldn't take official political positions for the most part. Obviously, you can go on to Twitter or something and you can find some monks saying something. But generally speaking, it's pretty much accepted that the monks would stay out of politics. Now, there's so few exceptions. I did go down to, within few days ago during the well, some recent struggles in the last decade, and I went to a monastery there just to show my face.

Phra Pandit 00:13:49 And because they will ask questions, why are farang monkeys wandering around? So usually you go and pay your respects to the local head monk.

Greg 00:13:57 Okay.

Phra Pandit 00:13:59 So while I was there waiting to speak to him, one of the monks started to get me on this and he he started hounding his, hammering his politics at me. And he was really quite, not enthusiastic. He's quite wound up by it. But again, I think this is in private. So you wouldn't do that as part of the monastery?

Greg 00:14:20 I was going to ask about that. I'm like, I'm sure that behind closed doors, when the lights go down and the monks all come back to their temples in the evenings, there's probably vociferous disagreements or arguments or opinions about whatever politics. For instance.

Phra Pandit 00:14:35 I think people in Thailand who disagree, they just tend not to talk to each other too much about it. Again, in the monastery, we. It's much clearer that you're not supposed to get involved. And it's clear that you don't want to alienate the other monks.

Phra Pandit 00:14:51 So, Yeah. I don't think there was a lot of arguments about it. There may be opinions expressed here and there, but I don't think people were arguing about it. Now, this is different in Sri Lanka. The Thai system of Thai Buddhist system comes from Sri Lanka, but in Sri Lanka it's the opposite. The monks get extremely political. Really they form political parties. They go out waving banners, holding protests, marching down the road.

Greg 00:15:20 What the hell? Why is it so different for them? And here, if they come from the same.

Phra Pandit 00:15:24 And they have different factions. So there are very clearly delineated different schools and factions in Sri Lanka who get along well. But when it comes to politics, they'll be on opposite sides.

Greg 00:15:38 So why is it okay there, but not here? See, this is my big problem with all religions that I argue about with our common friend George, who's a religious.

Phra Pandit 00:15:46 Nothing to do with religion. It's about the society.

Greg 00:15:48 But it's about the rules.

Greg 00:15:49 It's about. This is the. This is the club you belong to. Here's the rules. And then then you've got different rulebooks for different areas or different.

Phra Pandit 00:15:55 Listeners are much too focused on rules. You may have noticed in Thailand. Rules. The rules are suggestions. They're not rules.

Greg 00:16:04 Yeah okay. But so why is it okay there but not here.

Phra Pandit 00:16:07 Even elections here in this country they're just suggestions. Yes. It's. Yeah.

Greg 00:16:11 The traffic lights or pants I think the.

Phra Pandit 00:16:13 Forward party won the last election but they didn't form the government. Well everything's negotiable and I like that personally. As for Sri Lanka, it's just the custom. That's just the way that the society has gone customarily. I think in Thailand, a large part of the Sanga, the official head of the Sanga, is the king and the king was above politics and stayed out. So I think in large part the monk hood would follow that example or that precedent. Okay. And that's going back over a number of kings, probably going back 200 years.

Phra Pandit 00:16:50 because of that, I think that good example has helped to keep the monks out of politics, and they should be out of politics. It's not a religious matter about who you vote for. It's a secular matter.

Greg 00:16:59 There's one thing that I do like about about Buddhism and the way that monks operate is that it's the whole concept of when you why you're weighing the robe, not the person, or when when you give a speech, you're supposed to be holding that fan in front of your face. What's it called? The Taliban. The Taliban. Because you're not supposed to. You're not supposed to know which monk the message is coming from, because it doesn't matter who it's coming from.

Phra Pandit 00:17:22 So you're supposed to follow the words and not the teacher?

Greg 00:17:24 Exactly. Yeah. So have there been any famous politicians in Thailand that used to be monks? I mean, I guess most time.

Phra Pandit 00:17:32 Yeah, most. I mean, they've all been monks. So that was his name. Who ran the whistle blower protest in the last round of political strife? After it all calmed down and they were all sent home by the military.

Phra Pandit 00:17:49 He went on, ordained as a monk for a couple of years, I think, as a way to kind of atone for having generated and caused all this strife. My bad. Now he's going to clean up his bad karma, which is not a it's not a bad thing. Yes, it's superficial, but he did spend a couple of years in robes, and it's not a bad thing to say. You know what? Maybe we should have higher aspirations. so I think now politics, Buddhism did get involved or enmeshed in Thai politics insofar as all the big shots in Thailand political, army, police, etc. You usually have their favorite temples, right? So, each temple has a kind of matron or a patron. And then the temples can get a little bit drawn into strife that way. So what happened? What damaged Gaia at the time was the largest temple in Thailand. And the former prime minister, Thaksin. He went and made some offerings there, and they would receive anybody. They are genuinely not interested in politics.

Phra Pandit 00:19:02 Were they to get involved in politics, they would lose half their followers. They genuinely do not want to have any political strife in their monastery in any way.

Greg 00:19:13 But for just a quick for us on the side. For those that don't know that Dhammakaya temple is the gigantic one north of Don Myung Airport that looks like a flying saucer from the air, it's this massive, very, very wealthy sect.

Phra Pandit 00:19:27 Is that nothing to do with flying saucers?

Greg 00:19:30 Well, it looks If it looks like a flying saucer when you're in an airplane in a flying tube. But is it a sect of terror?

Phra Pandit 00:19:38 No, it's just part of Buddhism. Okay? It's not. Is this a school?

Greg 00:19:42 It's a very famous, very wealthy, very large temple.

Phra Pandit 00:19:45 Yes. So the politician went in and had his photo taken there. Of course, he's trying to boost his own profile by associating with the monks. But then that meant when his opposite opposing political teams came into power, they attacked the temple as a proxy on attacking him.

Phra Pandit 00:20:05 So the temple got drawn heavily into politics, which is a great shame, because genuinely, the temple had nothing to do with politics and wanted nothing to do with it. And they were just drawn in by this political hatred which we see in America so much right now. I saw this Tesla driver who's a Democrat voter, and he says every day he gets his stat spat at, he gets the finger shown to him just for driving a Tesla. This kind of political hatred and violence that gets whipped up by the media is what I find really troubling. And we've seen it in Thailand. And I, for one, personally am very glad at the moment that that whole political scene has been damped down, brought under control.

Greg 00:20:52 Yeah. Yeah, I think everyone is. I think it's funny that in, in, in Asia you sort of like, you know, you, I mean, I just got back from China. So you, you accept the level of authoritarianism. If it means that things are going to be calm and you can just go about your life and get on with things, you know.

Greg 00:21:08 But it's funny that that we look back at the some of the terrible, violent protests and things that have gone on in Thailand, the red shirts and the yellow shirts, what have you. but all of almost all of the people who were doing terrible things, who were men and probably some women too, used to be monks. So does does someone in the sangha look at that and go like, oh, what a shame, they've forgotten everything.

Phra Pandit 00:21:32 Can't hold the entire country to a set of religious ideals by saying, we used to be a monk. Therefore, we expect this behavior of you. There were some funny instances about this, though, that some, monks were involved. I think it was on the red shirt side. this was about 15, 20 years ago. And they were they were put at the front of the protest so the police wouldn't attack.

Greg 00:21:59 Yeah, I remember that.

Phra Pandit 00:21:59 Yeah. And then the police put a whole bunch of police women at the front of their lives.

Greg 00:22:03 So it's a pacifist off.

Phra Pandit 00:22:07 Yeah.

Greg 00:22:09 Do you remember that very famous photo of the protest in Burma? And a monk was like, like drop kicking some soldier or something? Like, he had one foot up, but he was was flip flop on, and he was giving the boots to some of the soldiers.

Phra Pandit 00:22:20 I didn't see that, but I, I taught a lot of Burmese monks in the university here, and they're all lovely people, but they are also rather political. Really. they, they are willing to get out there and, and fight. And unfortunately, they tend to be whipped up by fake social media stuff.

Greg 00:22:39 That's unusual.

Phra Pandit 00:22:39 So I've seen them show me pictures of, of, you know, a house burnt down and then with a caption on it saying, these people burnt this hand because of this reason and it just wasn't true. But you can put these pictures out and put people up so easily into, this political hatred. So yeah, the Burmese monks can be pretty political, so far as I know.

Phra Pandit 00:23:05 They don't get involved too much in secular parties, but they will get involved in, between Buddhist and, Muslim areas. They get involved in that. And they have been involved in the anti, military occupation from time to time. right? It takes quite a lot to really stir them up, I think. But it does happen from time to time. Now we had one in Thailand. We had a monk protestor. Remember he he locked Ching Wattana government House during the last round of political strife here.

Greg 00:23:40 I don't remember.

Phra Pandit 00:23:41 That. And, he, he had this huge demonstration and blocked the roads. The entirety of the government House was blocked. So when we were doing our visas, we had to go elsewhere after the military had took over. I don't know if people know. He was quietly disrobed and packed off. So he's no longer an issue. He's still involved politically a little bit, but since he isn't an abbot anymore.

Greg 00:24:13 Interesting. Getting back to my further point, which you made fun of me about the, the the the saying that, you see someone doing something bad? Especially with political violence.

Greg 00:24:26 And you. And you say like you used to be a monk. Aren't you forgetting the lessons that you taught that you learned? I'm just basing that. On what? The sort of Western things, you know, like, You're a good Catholic boy. Jimmy. What are you doing? Stealing from the your mom. My mother would be proud or something like that. Or you see politicians now saying like, oh, I would never do that. I'm a Christian, you know, which I think is all kind of horse crap anyway. But is there any of that bleed through in this, like, do politicians here or say, ever use their, their Buddhist lessons to publicly say, oh, I'm a good politician, I'm a former monk so I can behave ethically, and.

Phra Pandit 00:25:01 I have never really listened to the politicians talk very much so I wouldn't know, but.

Greg 00:25:06 It's probably for the best.

Phra Pandit 00:25:07 Remember when the there was the the red shirt blockade in the in center of Bangkok, and then Abhisit, who was the prime minister at the time, he set up a huge row of showers on the road so the protesters will be able to shower and get clean and provided food.

Phra Pandit 00:25:27 So things like that which you've seen on both sides, things like that would suggest that they're trying to appeal to higher ideals. Yeah. my university has had protesters come in and they stay in the university. The uni doesn't take a political side, but has provided facilities because they're strategically placed on the road. So things like that will happen. But yeah, certainly we're not supposed to get involved in Thailand.

Greg 00:25:58 Do you think they should? Do you think there might be that things would be better? Maybe if like.

Phra Pandit 00:26:04 No, I absolutely don't. I 100% think that one should stay out of politics.

Greg 00:26:08 Interesting.

Phra Pandit 00:26:09 We're supposed to represent and foster and further the religious ideal of something. The highest point of humanity. The attainment of enlightenment is the worthiest aspiration and we should not be getting involved in local affairs.

Greg 00:26:27 Well, yeah, okay, I see that. But playing devil's advocate then, I mean going back. We've had conversations before where hundreds of years ago, the temples acted as the the community schools and the monks were the teachers and the educators, and they should be the ones to sort of lead the community ethically, morally, spiritually, whatever.

Greg 00:26:49 one could also argue, I guess, that now it's almost time.

Phra Pandit 00:26:54 For a vote in those days.

Greg 00:26:56 Well, now they do. So maybe it's time for monks to step in and say I'm the best candidate. Because not only am I a smart cookie, I'm connected. I'm connected to the Sanga. I'm still in the sangha, and I can apply these noble principles to this set of, of, of this political construct that our society operates under. Now, I think.

Phra Pandit 00:27:17 Maybe two things there. One is a monkey is definitely not allowed to do those kind of things. He would have to disrobe. Okay, so 100% we couldn't go into political roles or governance or become judges or policemen or anything like that. You would have to disrobe first. So the question is really a matter of whether one supports it. Yeah. In speech or sermons or in any way. And no, I'm quite happy in Thailand that the monks stay out of it to a large degree. Obviously, again, Westerners love rules, but you know, they will get involved to some degree, 1 to 1, and they will have opinions.

Phra Pandit 00:28:01 But I'm okay to have the rule there and have a little bit of bleeding around the edges. You know, somebody gets a little involved here or there. You know, need to make hard and fast rules about it. But actually, compared to Sri Lanka, this is really quite nice that that monks really do still really follow that idea?

Greg 00:28:22 Yeah, I guess it would be a bit of a a bit trippy to see a bunch of monks standing up on a podium arguing in Parliament or something like that. It would.

Phra Pandit 00:28:29 Be. Yeah. He couldn't do that. Yeah, that would be strange.

Greg 00:28:32 This is sort of a related question, but a bit of an aside. When a monk does robes, what happens? What what is there a severing of the connection between the person and the sangha? Like you could disrobe today and then tomorrow run for politics. Yeah. So what's the difference between yesterday and today?

Phra Pandit 00:28:50 I've been disrobed.

Greg 00:28:51 But what's what? What changes is? What is there like a command that is ushered or uttered?

Phra Pandit 00:28:56 You take an ordination procedure which takes about an hour, and then you are officially a pixel or bhikkhu, depending Sanskrit or Pali, and then you're a monk.

Phra Pandit 00:29:09 And then when you disrobe, you have a ceremony which takes only a few minutes, and then the robes are pulled off your shoulder. Oh, really? And then you go and put on white clothes. You usually take five precepts, and then you're a layman. And you can do this seven times in a lifetime. Only seven. Well, that's quite a lot. I guess so. You're ordaining seven times. I mean, you probably want to make your mind up. unless you've broken one of the cardinal rules, if you've broken a cardinal rule, then you can never re ordain in this lifetime. But you can in the next lifetime.

Greg 00:29:46 Of a murder.

Phra Pandit 00:29:47 So, causing the loss of life of a human being, sexual intercourse with any animal, living or dead. stealing something of a reasonable value and, claiming to have supernatural powers in order to gain followers and offerings. So these are the four cardinal rules. Every other rule that monks break, we can, confess, absolve, and handle separately.

Phra Pandit 00:30:16 So yeah, you can ordain up to seven times in a lifetime.

Greg 00:30:20 So no interest for you to get into politics one day. You seem to be a pretty good negotiator. You're very well spoken. You understand the concepts.

Phra Pandit 00:30:29 I'm a big Trump supporter, so.

Speaker 7 00:30:31 Oh god. You and I actually disagree on quite a lot of things. It's fun to talk. Talk to you about these kind of things.

Phra Pandit 00:30:38 Some things he does I'm really happy with. But I'm not I don't. Political parties that you get entrenched in so that your view and opinion gets fed to you. I think is the is the bad thing. I go issue by issue, which is what I think people should do. so, for example, I'm always against guns and any kind of guns, and that would cut me out of any American political party because both of them support guns, right? I'm against the death penalty. I'm against life without parole. I am pro freedom and pro free speech. Being a vegetarian, I'm quite happy for other people to eat meat if they want to.

Phra Pandit 00:31:18 Some years ago they banned foxhunting in Britain, which I hate fox hunting and I hate the pageantry and how they dress up and then go out and slaughter an innocent fox. But I don't think the tyranny of the majority making rules for everybody else, I don't think is a good thing. So I very much pro freedom.

Phra Pandit 00:31:39 So I wouldn't be involved in a political party, but I would be involved on a issue by issue basis, which I think everybody should do. You shouldn't get your views and opinions fed to you through a party political machine, which is what I see happening.

Greg 00:31:56 Yeah. Then it's also crossing lines into cult of personality too. And you get people built up into these almost godlike figures, you know. Trump. Yeah. Yeah. now, while we're finishing up here, I just want to say that when we're talking about politics here, I mean, we're talking about the structured organization of political parties and how they govern a population. But within the monk hood, within your temple, there's there's got to be politics, too.

Greg 00:32:22 And I talk about small p politics as like the, the, the little cliques that form inside temples.

Phra Pandit 00:32:29 Oh, yeah.

Greg 00:32:29 Monks that don't like other monks and stuff.

Phra Pandit 00:32:31 Yeah, definitely. You have little cliques. arise. And then different people have different policies. One of the things is whenever there's money, suddenly everybody has an opinion on how the money should be spent. Yeah. So my temple built an enormous, Buddha Rupert. And I think the cost was 400 million baht.

Greg 00:32:51 This is at White Park named Jaren, which is the temple of the Big Golden Buddha. That is all over Instagram and stuff like that. That's been under construction for 400 million years.

Phra Pandit 00:33:00 Well, the paint was no good. So they didn't. He just finished it in two years later, they're repainting it. Okay. but currently the paint is held up. It's all comes from China gold paint and it's held up in customs. So right now people are flocking to see this giant Buddha image, and it's all behind these green, netting things.

Phra Pandit 00:33:20 Yeah. So some people said that the temple shouldn't. I have a friend? And his father said to him, the temple should not have built this Buddha statue for 400 million baht. They should have fed the poor instead.

Greg 00:33:33 I can see.

Phra Pandit 00:33:34 But people gave their money to build the statue. It's not like the temple was sitting on a big pile of 400 million baht, just trying to decide how to spend it. People donated to build that statue, so I don't think anyone has a right to come and divert the funds into their pet projects. The other thing was, anybody can come and eat for free anyway in the temple and always could. So we do give food away to people who want to be fed and they don't have to pay. So yeah, whenever there's money around you, Suddenly everybody has an opinion on the best way to spend it and it causes arguments. There was an argument a friend of mine who used to be a monk in Thailand, and he disrobed over this issue.

Phra Pandit 00:34:22 he was raising quite a lot of money, and he was running a charity sponsoring, Thai kids to go through university. Mostly poor kids from upcountry. And his abbot found out how much money he was raising and decided to buy a I think he's a, dialysis machine for the local hospital, something like that. And the abbot said, well, you live in my temple. The money you raise is up to me how it's spent. And the Westerner said, but people gave their money for this project of sponsoring kids. So in the end, he had to disrobe and he carried on running the same project himself. But as a, you know, as a secular independent.

Greg 00:35:05 Wow. Interesting.

Phra Pandit 00:35:06 So, yeah, things like that can occur, but that's normal between with human beings, I think.

Greg 00:35:11 Yeah, I think so, I think so. Well, I'm still holding my breath for one day. We'll see. Senator Joseph or whatever your real name is, which you have never told me. once you, Joseph.

Greg 00:35:22 Once you do, you're guessing. Joseph, I don't know, it could be a habit. I don't know what's a common British name. Charlie. I don't.

Phra Pandit 00:35:31 Know. My middle name is Charles.

Greg 00:35:32 Is it really? Yeah. Okay. Well.

Phra Pandit 00:35:35 You know, I think I'm more of, like, a. I think I'm more of a merrick.

Speaker 6 00:35:39 Merrick?

Phra Pandit 00:35:39 Yes. I like that name or. Damon.

Speaker 6 00:35:43 No no no no.

Phra Pandit 00:35:44 No, I was supposed to be called Damon when the church wouldn't allow it. My parents went to have me christened Damon. Why not? Because it sounds like Damien Omen or something.

Greg 00:35:53 Oh, God. Well, I was supposed to be Rodney.

Phra Pandit 6 00:35:55 Rodney?

Greg 00:35:55 Yeah, that's a British name. But then my mom liked Gregory Peck, so I became Greg.

Because he had big pecs.

Greg 00:36:04 I guess so, I guess it's better than being rod. Like the Simpsons episode where they congratulate an inanimate carbon rod. Anyway, thank you for that interesting stuff.

Greg 00:36:14 I think that, maybe the common sense that is indicative of a lot of Buddhism might be in, much, much, much needed in a lot of the politics of today. But, I guess we're not going to see it in Thailand, at least not amongst running campaigns, maybe ex monks, but.

Phra Pandit 00:36:33 I think but it has an effect. So even the politicians, they, they always try and pretend or portray themselves as aspiring to greater ideals. This is why I actually like kings. Really? Partly. Maybe because I'm British, but the king is the head of the country, not the government. And I like that. I like that whoever we elect as as Prime Minister of Britain. They still have to go to the king to pass any law. It always has to be signed in by the monarchy. It just keeps them in the place a little bit. The King start getting involved, but it just adds that little bit of distance that yeah, we elected you, but don't get ahead of yourself.

Greg 00:37:18 There's a very funny podcast. I'm getting off track here now at the end, but there's a very funny podcast called called Jonathan Pie, which you would love. I'll send it to you. But the most recent episode was about the monarchy, and he was going up ranting about how useless the British monarchy is and stuff. And then he gets a caller into a show who basically says the same thing. He's like, yeah, they're a bunch of useless, inbred idiots, but they're a unifying figure. It doesn't matter who's in power. They come and go and they come and go. But the monarchy is always there to sort of provide a rallying point for society to see as a sort of a point of stability.

Phra Pandit 00:37:49 It's a steady hand on the tiller, and it's a cap on the power of elected politicians who are getting ahead of themselves.

Greg 00:37:58 I guess, to be discussed in part two propaganda. Thank you very much for coming by. Always a pleasure to sit down and talk. Argue. And come away a bit more enlightened every time.

Greg 00:38:08 So thank you for the free education. See you next time

Phra Pandit 00:38:10 Cool.

Ed 00:38:19 Dude, this is a great conversation. I mean, you explained to me that this was somewhat impromptu. Obviously, I would have loved to have been there. I would have had a lot of questions, but, But that was interesting. my my my kind of immediate reaction is I'm not I'm not kind of surprised that in general, there's supposed to be a separation between kind of spiritual and worldly things. So monks, obviously, in general, they don't participate in normal life activities. And politics is, I guess, part of normal life activities.

Greg 00:38:52 Yeah, I agree, I agree, I agree. It's, it's it was it's like it's it's one of those questions that can be answered. Like can monks be involved in politics. No. Next article.

Ed 00:39:01 Right. Kind of things.

Greg 00:39:02 Right, you know? But there's actually a lot to talk about.

Ed 00:39:04 There's some nuance.

Greg 00:39:05 Right? But the funny thing that that did happen after the interview was done, I got to more thinking about it.

Greg 00:39:10 And there was a couple of times during the interview I was thinking, like the questions I asked was like, well, maybe politics could benefit from like the wise counsel of someone who has just finished time in a Buddhist monastery or something like that. But then I thought, geez, like, would I say the same thing if it was like some preacher coming out of being a priest for 30 years? That's right. That's right. So, yeah, maybe I maybe I sort of was blinded by my own bullshit there or something. But generally speaking, I would say that mixing religion and politics is not a good idea.

Ed 00:39:40 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, obviously I have a lot to say on it since I teach politics and I actually teach a class in religion. Right. So, yeah, I mean, I as an American, I'm very much into the separation of church and state. So although, I think, as you pointed out, like the kind of the insights of a monk would be very interesting.

Ed 00:39:58 You know, I like, you know, when I think of like a debate in Parliament and among standing up, giving his take, that would be kind of a cool take or a cool injection into the normal political debate. Yeah, but but I understand why having a like a wall there makes sense.

Greg 00:40:15 Oh, yeah. Totally. I totally do too. And apparently so did the Buddha. So it was interesting to get some some feedback.

Ed 00:40:21 Well, I have a weird I have a weird little take on this. when, you know, I, I'm certainly not an expert on Plato or Greek Greek philosophy in general, but I teach some in class. And, you know, Plato had this crazy vision for the perfect the, the perfect city or the the beautiful city, so to speak. and and his, his idea of of philosopher kings, they almost kind of sound like monks, like his view of, of the, the true best leaders are these people who don't need money, don't need jobs, don't care, and also don't care about family.

Ed 00:40:58 Emily. So it's not. It's, It's a little bit like a like an ascetic, someone who's removed from daily concerns. These are the kind of people who should be making decisions. So when I, when I read it or try to explain it to my students, they almost kind of sound like monks, you know, because, you know, because it's interesting, you know, because the problem with I mean, if we think of modern politics without mentioning names, either in Thailand or in, in the US, it's like the problem is when you have political power, there's a tendency to want to benefit, let's say your own family or your children or your children.

Greg 00:41:35 or just financially straight up.

Ed 00:41:36 That's right. and so having, people who are kind of like monks without those attachments, I understand, you know, why that could be appealing. Having a political leader with no family and no money, that was kind of an aesthetic. That is kind of an ideal. It's just not. Not the way the world really is.

Greg 00:42:01 Right. Yeah. That's interesting. And I guess, I mean, then once religion is in, it is introduced to us in an equation, then it's like, well, obviously I want everyone to believe the same thing I want to do. And that's what troubles start. If only we could get some monk atheists. I mean, I know that's a direct contradiction.

Ed 00:42:16 That's what I'm saying. I mean, that's basically I mean, that's basically, as far as I could tell. this is roughly like a platonic, idea and ideal, actually. but, yeah. So I think my, so anyway, the the interview was great. I my, I remember, just over the years when I'm reading about Buddhism, it's obviously just mostly spiritual stuff, you know, as you would expect. But then occasionally there's these weird, dialogues where the Buddha is talking about, like, very real world stuff because he taught for a long period of time. And people basically there's records of almost like Q&A sessions.

Ed 00:42:58 And so yeah, so there's some real world stuff. I remember a dialogue where someone asked him about marriage, you know, how to have a good marriage, and, I should I, I'm just going to say this because it's in my it's in my head, but I probably should I should check this first. But I swear to you, I swear to God, there's a dialogue where the Buddha basically tells a guy, you should buy your wife flowers, like, every once in a while. Like, like very practical, like kind of common sense. Yeah. Dude, if you better, you should buy your wife some gifts. Like, every once in a while.

Greg 00:43:33 There's a bit of a tangent. But this afternoon, we, me and my son, drove my wife to, to a wedding she went to for one of her friends. And he and my wife said, does does mommy look pretty? And my son said, yeah, yeah. And I took him aside. I'm like, and you also, what you should do is and you should follow that up with a compliment on something, shoes or earrings or hair or something like that.

Greg 00:43:50 My wife hit me, of course, but I was like, you got there's only one answer to that question is yes, you look beautiful. And also you should add something because that gives you some dimensionality. So that's just kind of fun.

Ed 00:43:59 That's great. Very practical. The very practical advice there.

Greg 00:44:04 He got to learn from somewhere. Right. I never had my dad to teach me. I had to learn through many, many years of toil and struggle.

Ed 00:44:09 Many, many years of failure. Right. And then you finally figured out there's only one answer to that question. No, I wish I. I'm torn on this issue. I'm torn in the way we've talked about. I totally understand kind of the, you know, I think of it as an American thing since I teach American politics. But, you know, in, in the US, there's this strict wall of separation, like they're just religious people should not. I'm not saying people who go to church shouldn't be involved in politics, but just religious ideas, religious motivations should not be part of politics.

Ed 00:44:41 So I, I get that. But then man like a monk, that a monk that leads a very different life, that sees the world from a different angle, you know, their wisdom in politics, I think, would be a a breath of fresh air, I think.

Greg 00:44:58 Yeah, yeah I agree. Well, we can, we can, we can always hope for a better, brighter future. Maybe in a couple hundred years they'll be like a council of leaders or something. And a monk will.

Ed 00:45:07 Be a true, wise man. Maybe. Maybe we call it like the Jedi Council. Possibly.

Greg 00:45:11 I like where this is going. Well, many thanks for sitting down and chatting. Always, always a fun discussion and we hope to have you back again soon.

Ed 00:45:22 No doubt about it. Thank you.

Greg 00:45:24 All right, let's get into some love, loathe or live with where one of us picks a particular aspect of living in Bangkok, which we discuss to decide if it's something we love about living here, loathe about living here, or we've come to accept as something that we just have to learn to live with, no matter how we feel about it.

Greg 00:45:37 And this weekend, I got a pretty straightforward one for you.

Ed 00:45:40 Okay.

Greg 00:45:41 But I want to see what you think when you're in a park. one of one of Bangkok's many parks. The big ones, the small ones, whatever. And you want to take a short cut across the grass? What do you think about when you put your foot on the grass and you hear a whistle and some security guard is like you, you. No, no, no. And basically, you're not allowed to walk on the grass.

Ed 00:46:01 Yeah. I'm a I'm, I'm a I wouldn't say regular offender. It's not like I'm in this situation a lot, but I'm definitely a shortcut kind of guy. Like, I am the kind of guy who who will just walk over this thing and and I hate walking around. It's funny. It's kind of funny you brought this up because I think I feel you could almost generalize this where I do this kind of stuff all the time. It might even be an MRT station or BTS station where, you know, there's a the the counter that I want to get to, and they have a, a maze of of what, you know, to get there that, you know, they have the barriers set up.

Ed 00:46:41 So you got to walk down and you turn right. And I just.

Greg 00:46:44 Try to get into a hot club or something with the velvet.

Ed 00:46:46 Ropes. Yeah. And there's no one in line. And they've got, you know, I've got to walk five times the distance, so I feel like I feel like a tool walking, making these little corner turns with no one.

Ed 00:46:58 There. No, I am the guy that just like, pushes the rope down and just steps over it, you know? Because, because, because actually, you know, I'm not super tall, but by Thai standards, I'm tall. So a lot of times the barriers are things I can step over. So I am a short, totally just ignoring the barrier. Like walk across the grass, like step over this. so again, I wouldn't say I'm a hater. I'm going to go mild loathe.

Greg 00:47:27 I'm going to go heavy. Loathe. Oh, okay. When it when it comes to walking now, there are a lot of times when I've tried to ride my bike across the grass or something, and they've stopped me, and I kind of get that, you know, bikes can tear up grasses, but I mean, what else is grass for if not to? Yes, to walk on and enjoy.

Greg 00:47:44 It seems ridiculous to me.

Ed 00:47:46 I think.

Greg 00:47:47 When you go.

Ed 00:47:47 By nature is supposed to be tough. It's not. It's not like you're walking on a flower bed.

Greg 00:47:52 Right? Right. It's like when you go to your grandma's place and she has a new sofa, but you're not allowed to sit in it. It's covered with plastic or something. Like, why buy it then? You're like granny so much. Let me sit on your stupid chair. But yeah, I just. I don't get it. If you have this nice, beautiful park and you spend time, like, making it look nice, I'm not gonna start running around in football cleats. I just want to stroll across it, perhaps even sit down and enjoy myself.

Ed 00:48:13 Agreed. I'm with you. I think we're close to 100%. It doesn't bother me that much, but I am. I don't know if I'd call myself the King of shortcuts, so I'm definitely. You know, sometimes I see a bit. Sometimes I see a barrier, and I just kind of know I'm not supposed to walk this way.

Ed 00:48:29 But then I look at, oh, this is going to take me, you know, two, this is going to take me 45 seconds to walk around. And I'm like, no, I'm not, I'm not doing that. I'm not.

Greg 00:48:37 It's 45 seconds. I could be listening to music at home.

Ed 00:48:39 That's right. I'm gonna take this ten second shortcut. That's me. So I gotta say low. So I guess we're a double loathe here.

Greg 00:48:47 Double oath. I like.

Ed 00:48:48 It. All right, a final thanks to our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. Where Bangkok podcasts on social media, Bangkok podcasts on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages.

Greg 00:49:13 That's right. Listen to each episode on YouTube as well. Send us a voicemail through our website that will feature on the show.

Greg 00:49:18 Hit me up on blue Sky at BkkGreg. Thanks for listening, everyone. Stay cool. Hot season is still around and we'll see you back here next week.

Ed 00:49:26 For sure.