Conflict & Legacy: Journalist Denis Gray Discusses His New Memoir [S8.E47]

Greg 00:00:05 On this episode, we talk with legendary journalist and war correspondent Dennis Gray about his new memoir.

Ed 00:00:11 So if you want to peek into the life of a true adventurer as he covers some of the biggest stories this century, you'll dig this episode of the Bangkok Podcast.

Greg 00:00:36 Sawat dee krap and welcome to the Bangkok Podcast. My name is Greg Jorgensen, a Canadian who came to Thailand in 2001 to find myself. Turns out that was easy. I was in Thailand, but what I didn't find was the desire to leave.

Ed 00:00:50 Ooh, that was clever. I see what you did there. Yeah. And I made Knuth an American who came to Thailand on a one year teaching contract over 25 years ago. Fell in love with ordering Pad Thai like a boss until I realize. Thais don't actually consider that their national dish, so I never left.

Greg 00:01:07 It's like. It's like you, you'll have the pad Thai and you expect everyone to be like, he did it. He did it. He's lifting you up on his shoulders. So Thai.

Ed 00:01:15 He's so Thai. He understands our culture.

Greg 00:01:18 He gets it. He gets us.

Ed 00:01:21 Then five years later, I learned it. It's about the fourth or fifth favorite dish, you know?

Greg 00:01:25 Yeah, I don't know.

Ed 00:01:27 We want to give a big thanks to all of our patrons who support the show. Patrons get every episode a day early, behind the scenes photos of our interviews. Heads up to send questions to upcoming guests and access to our discord server to chat with me, Greg, and other listeners around the world. But best of all, patrons also get an unscripted, uncensored bonus episode every week where we riff on current events and Bangkok topics on this week's bonus show. We chatted about the reason why I was unable to host last week's show, and why I'm recording this episode in Cleveland, Ohio at the end of an emotional and stressful week and Greg's eventful holiday weekend, which saw him visiting the met in the noisiest room imaginable and experiencing the one thing he had hoped to avoid in Thailand a car accident which thankfully was just a fender bender.

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Greg 00:02:28 That's right. And as always, if you have a comment, show idea, or just want to say hi. Head to Bangkok Podcast and click the little microphone button on the bottom right and leave us a voicemail that we'll play on the show. All right then. Well, on this episode, we chat with a legendary foreign correspondent whose career has spanned more than five decades and some of the most consequential events of the modern era. Reporting for the Associated Press, Dennis Gray covered the Vietnam War, the fall of Cambodia to the Khmer Rouge, conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and the Balkans, and countless stories across Asia. He was born in wartime Czechoslovakia. He escaped Communist Europe with his family. Studied at Yale, served as a US Army captain, and eventually made Thailand his home, where he has lived since 1975.

Greg 00:03:14 Now, this is one of those guys that whose bio makes you and me look like little pipsqueak cream puffs by comparison.

Ed 00:03:20 No doubt, no doubt.

Greg 00:03:22 He has gone from battlefields and refugee camps to royal palaces and remote jungles, documenting not only history's biggest events, but also the resilience and humanity of the people caught up in them. His new memoir, Lost Horizons, covers all of this craziness in detail and goes deep into what it means to live and thrive in a rapidly changing world. So here is my very interesting interview with Dennis Graham. All right. We are happy to have on the show someone that I'm sure that I've met, but I can't remember where our Venn diagrams of friends and colleagues and associates overlap almost completely. But I don't remember ever meeting this guy. But I'm going to change that in the future. We're talking, of course, about Dennis Gray. Dennis, welcome to the Bangkok Podcast.

Dennis Gray 00:04:17 Thank you very much. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Greg 00:04:19 It's great to have you on.

Greg 00:04:21 I know you are a very well regarded, well-read, well-written, well, whatever journalist in Southeast Asia and, you are, I don't want to say dying breed, but, you know, guys like you, they don't make him anymore. It's cheesy to say, but you sort of seen it all done it all, been everywhere and have, a hell of a story to tell. Which is which is what we're talking about. And you've got a book that looks fascinating. I'm looking forward to reading. So, the book is called Lost Horizons A Foreign Correspondence, extraordinary life story. So, Dennis, tell us a little bit about Dennis. Where where did you come from and how did you end up in Asia?

Dennis Gray 00:04:59 Well, it's a long story and part of it is exciting. Part of it is a bit boring. But anyway, I was born in the Czech Republic, Czechoslovakia, as it was then called, and because the communists had taken over our country, my family had to flee. My father was in politics, anti-communist politics, so he had to escape.

Dennis Gray 00:05:18 So our family fled across the Iron Curtain, the what was then the Iron Curtain. And I lived and lived in Germany for quite a while. And the reason we lived in Germany, because my father, when he escaped, he was sort of well known because he was a young rising politician in Czechoslovakia. So more or less after we crossed the border, he was hired by the CIA, the Central Intelligence Agency, to work as an agent so that that was our time in Germany. After that, we moved to a number of different countries, first because of the CIA. And number two, my father eventually left the agency and joined IBM. So we moved around. We moved in Germany, went back to the United States. We lived in South Africa, we lived in Paris, and then finally in the United States, in the United States. I was, went to university at Yale. And after that, unlike a lot of my colleagues at Yale, I actually volunteered for the Army. And sure enough, I was sent overseas to Asia and first to Japan, which I fell in love with.

Dennis Gray 00:06:21 That was my first sort of Asian experience, fell in love with Asia at the time. And then the Army did send me to Vietnam originally, eventually. And I was in the cover of the I was in the Vietnam War for a year before returning to civilian life in the United States.

Greg 00:06:37 So they sent you right over during the war, during the Vietnam War.

Dennis Gray 00:06:40 Right. Which wasn't right in the middle of the war, actually. It was actually a, in a way, a bad time to send me there because the American phase of the war was more or less ending, was winding down. American troops were sort of at their last, conducting some of their last campaigns. So, I had actually a rough job in Vietnam. Not so much of the danger, but the idea that I had to lead some men and they all knew that the war was over. And of course, they didn't want to be. They didn't want to be killed. They wanted to have a nice, you know, remaining months that they had in Vietnam and return home safe and body.

Dennis Gray 00:07:18 So it wasn't an easy, easy task for, for a I was a captain at that time.

Greg 00:07:23 So. Well, all that moving around must have left its mark on you. Especially your mark in Asia, I guess. So you went after you went back to the States, then eventually you made your way back to Asia, which is where you still are today, right?

Dennis Gray 00:07:34 Well, then when I went back to the States, I didn't know what I would do with my life. I frankly, the three years in the army had sort of thrown me off balance, I guess. But I decided for different reasons that the journalism might be the thing I enjoyed writing. I loved writing fact, and I enjoyed working overseas. For the taste I had both in Europe and in Asia. So I eventually got. It was difficult at that time. They were they weren't hiring too many journalists, but eventually, luckily got a job with the Associated Press in all places, Albany, New York. And not a bad place, but it was a bit different from Vietnam and Japan, I bet.

Greg 00:08:16 Yeah. And then and then and then your your career eventually and got you back here. How did that happen.

Dennis Gray 00:08:23 Right. Well that happened when I was there in Albany for about a year. And I learned the basics of the trade I had. I had never written a line of journalism in my life, so I had to start from scratch. And the AP was a great boot camp for teaching guys like me about the trade. So I, I, I survived a year, and because I had a military experience at that time, the AP was looking for people who had volunteered to go to Vietnam to cover the war. And since I had that experience, Normally, you'd have to stay in America for a couple of years before they send you overseas. But because of that, that was a sort of a lucky break. They shipped me right back to Vietnam, and there I was. my first major assignment with the AP was covering the Vietnam. it was more than Vietnam. Was Indochina covering Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.

Greg 00:09:11 Wow. And that must have been an insane time to be there, because everything was different, I imagine. I can't even imagine the the challenges facing the people, the politics, the economies and things like that.

Dennis Gray 00:09:23 Obviously, you know, the war had been going on for quite some time, and this was sort of the in fact, the last gasp of Indochina under under non non communist rule. So extremely, extremely difficult and dangerous. And and I also had a lot to learn too, because, you know, I covered some stuff in Albany like basketball scores and you know, the latest scandals down at the Albany State Bureau. But this was a different, different kind of thing and a different kind of deadlines and different kind of situations to cope and cope with. So yes, it was especially the first few months where we're rather difficult for me.

Greg 00:10:00 How long did you stay in the region doing that?

Dennis Gray 00:10:02 Well, I came over in 1973 and my last, my last assignment in Indochina was April 1975, when when the Communist victories, in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos occurred, and I moved myself to or the AP movies.

Dennis Gray 00:10:22 Excuse me? The AP moved me to Bangkok. So that was, my introduction to Thailand in 1975. Right, exactly. April 19th April 18th, 1975.

Greg 00:10:36 Wow. I don't want to date either of us, but I was two months old then, so. Man, that is old school.

Dennis Gray 00:10:41 No, no, please don't make me look so old.

Greg 00:10:46 Wow. So. And you've been. I mean, that was. That was when the Khmer Rouge were were in action too. Right.

Dennis Gray 00:10:52 Well, the. That's right. I mean, the in April, the Khmer Rouge scored a victory against the government and the occupy and took over, took over all of Cambodia. And we're there for these this reign of terror, which lasted until the Vietnamese invaded them, invaded Cambodia and ousted the Khmer Rouge in 1979. A horrific and absolutely horrific and indescribable time for the Cambodians during that, during that, that period.

Greg 00:11:20 Yeah. Now, how what was your involvement in that? Did you cover that at all?

Dennis Gray 00:11:23 Well, none.

Dennis Gray 00:11:25 Yes or no? None of us journalists were allowed into Cambodia by the Khmer Rouge, and obviously we didn't want to go in there secretly. We obviously would have been captured and killed. So the the way that most journalists, including myself and the AP and all my other colleagues, we covered it often from Bangkok because that was sort of the closest point by various means, listening to the radios coming out of the propaganda. Well, the news radios from Cambodia, Laos and in Vietnam, and by going to the the Thai Cambodian border and talking to refugees who were, of course, fleeing this horror, this, this hell that was occurring in, in, in their, their homeland. So there were it was difficult. But we had, you know, journalists have to find a way to cover these stories, even if they don't have a sort of face to face, face to face encounter with them. So we try to do our best. And as I said, the combination of different things and of course, there were some sources that we had, like, for example, the CIA and some diplomats who had other means of of finding out information.

Dennis Gray 00:12:28 So it was a hodgepodge of things we had to do in order to try it as hard as we could to get a picture of what was happening inside Cambodia and Vietnam and Laos, too.

Greg 00:12:38 Wow, man. That's, that must have been an intense time. You know, it's what's what fascinates me about the Khmer Rouge and the whole Cambodian genocide thing was, is just sort of how. limited the knowledge about it is. And I'm reminded of a, I mean, in sort of the wider world. And I'm reminded of a story. This was 15 years ago now. A friend was showing some new employees, new colleagues around his, his, his work. And it was, you know, these were well-educated, university level two women who came to Asia to work in this fairly high profile role in this organization. And he mentioned the Khmer Rouge. And they said, what's that? And he said, you know, the the genocide that happened in Cambodia, like a couple of hundred kilometers from here.

Greg 00:13:20 And they and he said that their response was, so Valley Girl, it was shut up. Like they just didn't have any idea about it. And it kind of has always mystified me why this isn't, you know, the I guess it's overshadowed by, you know, the Holocaust of World War Two and things like that. But these things don't seem to break out too much, out of out of the sphere of Asia or the immediate vicinity, or people who are invested in reporting about it or writing about it.

Dennis Gray 00:13:46 Well, I think to an extent, you're right. I mean, if you ask people today, especially in uneducated America, they would you have to ask them about even the Vietnam War and they would have a puzzled look on their face. Not everybody, of course, but many. And certainly Cambodia. Where's Cambodia? I mean, yeah. Believe it or not. these are not educated people now, but sort of, I don't know, I don't want to say uneducated, but people that don't know much about Asia.

Dennis Gray 00:14:12 Anyway, sometimes I get this query. do you live in Taiwan now? They get Taiwan and Thailand. Make stuff, believe it or not. I mean, yeah, I mean, that's that's the extreme. That's extreme. But I'll tell you why. One reason or many reasons why Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge weren't that much in the international, focused spotlight. Number one, there was no access during the Khmer Rouge period. Right. And to get people's attention, you need you need visual stuff. You need the photographs, you need video. And that just wasn't coming out of Cambodia. So at that time. Now later, of course, more stuff came out. Books came out. Quite a few good, outstanding books about Cambodia. there were some programs on Cambodia. There was a one fantastic movie which won Oscars, The Killing Fields, which is about Cambodia. And that, that, that, sort of that sort of sparked some attention. But overall, overall, you're right. And that's one of the themes in my book is that, that the the Cambodian war is largely forgotten in, in the general sense.

Greg 00:15:20 Oh, interesting. You know, there's a concept that I, that I heard first heard about when I was listening to some podcasts on ancient Rome, which I'm a nerd about. And it's I'm not sure if you've heard about it, but it's a period of time that the Romans and the Byzantines called a secular essay column. And basically it's it's the period of time between when something major happens and the death of the last person who was old enough to remember it. You know. So. Right. Right now we're sort of approaching or amidst the secular for World War two. So there's not really any World War II veterans left anymore. The people that really fought and managed and and experienced World War two are very rare. And so I think we're starting to see that now. We're starting to see people forgetting the lessons learned and forgetting the hard fought truths that came out of things like that. Because there's nothing there's no people left anymore to continue that or to the that first hand knowledge to continue that education.

Greg 00:16:20 You know what I mean?

Dennis Gray 00:16:21 You're absolutely right. That generation is almost all gone. And the Korean War that's largely forgotten to those veterans. And and sadly for all of my colleagues, a lot of my Vietnam era colleagues are have already passed away and some probably don't have too much. Many more. Certainly another two decades, they'll all be gone. So you're absolutely right. It's a very sad thing, but that's, that's that's the fate of us human species, I guess.

Greg 00:16:50 I mean, yeah, well, luckily some some people like you are leaving their mark by writing books and things like that. So that's that's.

Dennis Gray 00:16:56 Positive. The only thing, and that's one reason why I wrote the book, because I wanted to preserve, the memory of some of the people who I knew or who I lost and and some of the brave, the brave and, and are no longer no longer with us. I mean, even in America, I hate to bring up politics, but even in America, some people, including our wonderful president, Mr. Trump, are vague about the Pearl Harbor.

Dennis Gray 00:17:19 I mean, Pearl Harbor, you know, the attack on Pearl Harbor. Believe me, if you ask the, I don't know, 1000 Americans, what is Pearl Harbor, what significance Pearl Harbor has? I bet a lot of them would not wouldn't be able to answer. So memories fade. Education systems perhaps running as good as they should be, but especially when teaching history.

Greg 00:17:40 Yeah, man, I only wish I was excited about history in high school as I am now. I would have been an Ace student, but I don't know what it is about kids. I guess they just glaze over when they start learning about it.

Dennis Gray 00:17:51 Yeah, often they have very bad teachers, so they get put off by history.

Greg 00:17:55 True. True. So. So tell me about the book, then. Lost Horizons. I mean, how did it come together and what sort of the, the story behind it? And what are you trying to do with it?

Dennis Gray 00:18:06 Well, you know, for many years people have asked me.

Dennis Gray 00:18:08 Yeah, you read about interesting life. You should write about it. And I, you know, I was very busy at the time, very busy with the AP, doing it mostly going all over the place and so on. So but when I started, when I retired, I was sort of semi-retired now. I had plenty of time to think about it. And I looked over my life. I read my diaries, and I realized perhaps there was something that would be of interest to to maybe, perhaps quite a few people. So that started me thinking about it. And, and, and I try to sort of try to bring out a few themes in my life which might be relevant. and one it would be a common theme of all humanity. This idea of of love and loss. You know, the people and places we loved and the places and people we lost. So that was one of the sort of seminal ideas for the book, and which is if you if you do read the book that that theme carries over, through, through throughout almost every chapter of the book.

Dennis Gray 00:19:03 not only there's a lot to do, a lot of my book about wars, but, but the loss is not always in the in the wars. It's always, in a very different, different setting as well. So that was one of the themes that I guess the second theme was in my life was this idea that I've always had a because perhaps because of my early years, I had always had this feeling of, wanting to not to hibernate, but to find a place of refuge so that that my where my life would be stable wouldn't be too much change. And on the other hand, I also had this, this sort of this quest, a desire for for excitement and action again because I've moved around so much. So that was another conflicting theme. So those I guess those two themes were the were the are the themes of my of my book love and loss and the the conflict within me between finding a lost horizons, as it were, and then seeking the excitement and especially the excitement that one the one does have in wars.

Dennis Gray 00:20:02 Sadly.

Greg 00:20:03 Yeah. Yeah. I, I was just back in Canada with my son, who's 11, and, you know, he was talking like, do you think you could ever come move back here? And we were talking about the things that he liked about Canada versus the things he liked about Asia. And, you know, we were talking about this exact same thing like Canada is, is, is really nice and it's a first world country and it's rich, blah, blah, blah. And sidewalks are even with no potholes. but it's very predictable. And I think that him and I sort of agreed that that Asia. Bangkok. Is that nice? That nice, sort of refreshing, discombobulating that that that chaos, that unpredictability that that some people, not everyone, but some people sort of thrive on and find comforting and exciting. So, that's that's that's what I told them. That's why I live in Asia. That's why I told them that. And I said, for you, that sort of sense of excitement might come from moving back to Canada when you're old.

Greg 00:20:56 But that's why I'm in Asia anyway. So that was an interesting conversation with him.

Dennis Gray 00:21:00 Very, very relevant again, also to to me it's I was talking about the excitement of war, but that's that's only one part of it. A lot of the excitement and the reason I stayed in Asia initially was exactly what you this what you described, there is a bit of especially when you go to places like India or Bangladesh or but but Thailand as well. There is this a little bit of chaos living a little bit on the edge. You don't know exactly what's going to happen the next day. So that's definitely also part of it. It's not just the visceral excitement of, you know, of going to a war. Yeah.

Greg 00:21:31 Yeah, yeah, it might even be just the the little bit of excitement you get sitting on the back of a motorcycle taxi. You know, that's still pretty cool for me, right?

Dennis Gray 00:21:39 Hoping and hoping you'll survive, right?

Greg 00:21:42 Exactly. So it seems that the journalism profession is is kind of a really good fit for you.

Greg 00:21:47 I mean, the story you told about when you were a kid and how many. I don't know how many countries you've lived in. A dozen. this sort of, I don't know if itinerant is the right word in any negative connotations with that, but you've moved around so much and you've seen so much, and and that seems like a history tailor made for being a journalist. So I'm not sure if it was, you know, accidental that you happened into it or you just that that played a role in what draw. What drew you to it. What do you think?

Dennis Gray 00:22:17 Well, I as I said, that's exactly what you said. That's quite true. But the reason I went into it, as I said, after the Vietnam War, I had no idea. I thought maybe diplomacy, maybe teaching, maybe I thought about journalism. But that was just one of several things I thought I might want to do. But three, the real reason I chose journalism, believe it or not, was actually when I was in the military in Vietnam.

Dennis Gray 00:22:40 And that was, at that time, there was a it was a, ambassador there, Ellsworth Bunker, the U.S. ambassador to Vietnam at the time, very patriotic, very sort of aristocratic guy, a very good diplomat. And he had happened to go to Yale. So he had this idea, why don't I look at this, find any any people who had gone to Yale, they're now in Vietnam, either in the military or civilian status. So he actually rounded all of us up. I don't know how he found us. And he had a very nice reception at the at the embassy. So myself, I came in my jungle fatigues. Other came dressed beautifully. And the reason, the reason I mentioned this is because at that reception I met several journalists, American journalists, and also 1 or 2 foreign ones who were in Vietnam covering the war and and the way they explained it, I thought, these people are really trying to tell what's really happening, because I knew I knew. The other side, the propaganda side of myself.

Dennis Gray 00:23:39 And I was part of it. I was in the military. But these people are really trying to dig below the surface, dig below the propaganda, dig below the the the the the the, the difficulties of operating in such a situation. And they're really trying to tell the truth. That really impressed me tremendously. And I think I date my decided to go into journalism from that really from that moment. And so when I came back from the war and I immediately started looking for jobs in journalism.

Greg 00:24:07 You kind of I know I'm putting words in your mouth here, but it seems to me that you sort of your perspective might be one of like pre-war, post-war, pre-war Asia, post-war Asia and whatever this is modern Asia, I guess you could say 21st century Asia. What is your take on sort of those, those eras in Asia and how things have changed? Where do you see it in the past and where do you see yourself like, where is Dennis right now in the in the story of Asia, what's going on?

Dennis Gray 00:24:36 Well, it's sort of complicated, but, you know, I first came to Asia, I guess would be in 1960.

Dennis Gray 00:24:42 Was it 69? I guess, in Japan to Japan. My military service in Japan. And. And since then, with a very brief, at a time in America. I've been in Asia ever since. So obviously since ninth, let's say 19, late 1960s until 2026. I mean, you don't need to be a scholar. You don't need to be anybody to know that the changes have been absolutely, absolutely astounding and amazing for good and for good and not so good. So I have obviously seen a huge amount of change in Thailand, which is my home now and has been for a long, long time, and other parts of Asia, even more remote places like, you know, Nepal and and Bangladesh and Sri Lanka and so on, so tremendous changes. And it's been I've seen the benefits. I've seen people who are in the 1970s, were were starving, had no access to medical treatment and now go to a hospital, can have a baby. Perhaps not a great life, but a very decent life.

Dennis Gray 00:25:44 So there have been many positive changes. But also when you get older, you're also nostalgic about some of the wonderful things have now disappeared from Asia. Totally. You know, the bygone Asia as I knew it in the 70s is is gone. The architecture, the cities have changed totally. Rural areas have changed. people of course, have changed with have have also changed with the changes. So it's a it's a, you know, it's a negative and a positive thing for me. And as you get older, I guess you get more and more and more and more nostalgic.

Greg 00:26:17 More nostalgic and bitter in my case. But yeah.

Dennis Gray 00:26:20 Jaded and bitter too. Yes. Some of the changes have been awful. I mean, let's face it, you know, awful.

Greg 00:26:26 So you've lived in Thailand for for a long, long time. And you consider this your home. What what was it that made you settle down here? Especially after a life where you saw so much and went so many places? And let's let's talk about Thailand a little bit.

Greg 00:26:42 What? What about you comforts. What about it comforts you?

Dennis Gray 00:26:46 Well, I mean, as I said, after the the communist communist took over the three countries of Indochina, AP sent me to Bangkok. I had no choice about that. So I stayed in Bangkok for a little bit. and then, they, almost your story. I thought to myself, well, the appeal keep me here for a year or two. It's a great place. I loved Bangkok for the very go. It was still a tropical city. There were no high skyscrapers. people were very sweet. The traffic was already there, but not that much. So I said, hey, this is a great place. You know, people obviously very, very friendly. so I said, well, maybe I'll stay for a year or two and maybe 2 or 3. And then, like with you, I said, well, after three years, hey, this is a really good place. And where do I want to go? Do I want to go to Europe? Yes.

Dennis Gray 00:27:39 I thought about Europe because I still have close, you know, emotional ties to Europe and the cultural ties to Europe. But then I thought again, we discussed it before. You know, I love Europe. I love going there to the opera. I love seeing the old places. But let's face it, it's pretty boring. If they send me to Europe, I'd be covering press conferences. I'd be covering a strike. You know, Volkswagen strikes. I'd be covering, pretty dull things, you know, here, I've got a lot of a lot of exciting places. And out of Bangkok, the AP sent me all over the world. So why the hell should I change? This is great. I've got both, both worlds. So why not?

Greg 00:28:16 So, exactly.

Dennis Gray 00:28:18 It went on and on and on. And I said, eventually I said, well, I think this is the place for me.

Greg 00:28:24 Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's it, isn't it? That's what we say all the time.

Greg 00:28:29 It's you can you can get a Starbucks in the morning and a croissant. And then in the afternoon be out, you know, in the rice fields right next to a water buffalo or something.

Dennis Gray 00:28:39 Right. By the way, by the way, I never go to a Starbucks. I think the coffee, especially in Chiang Mai, is ten times better and half the price of Starbucks.

Greg 00:28:50 Yeah, yeah, it's hard to argue with that.

Dennis Gray 00:28:54 Just an just an interjection there. But,

Greg 00:28:56 I'm looking at the, the press kit for your book, and I haven't gotten the book yet, but, there's some there's some wonderful pictures in here. There's a picture of you as a young lad in Paris, and there's pictures of the the war in Vietnam. And you in, in northern Thailand with refugee children. Children and, what was what was the most enjoyable, interesting part of the book to write for you? any particular stories or chapters stand out?

Dennis Gray 00:29:20 Well, I think two things. I mean, the most, the most enjoyable, I would say, would be the chapter on Paris in the 1960s, which I thought 90.

Dennis Gray 00:29:30 Paris in the 1960s. Again, this idea of change. Paris is still great, I still go. I'm going there in the fall. But it's not Paris in the 1960s. For many, many reasons I want to go into so. But that was also my youth. I was 18, 19 and all that. So. And it's also the place I first fell in love with. Is somebody I mean, really fell in love. So that, that that part was very, very enjoyable to write. The most difficult part was obviously Cambodia, no question about it. Very difficult for me to write the chapter on the war and then the aftermath, the Khmer Rouge aftermath. With so because I lost so many of the, I would say, the bravest men I've ever known.

Greg 00:30:11 Yeah, yeah, I imagine that would be very hard to write about.

Dennis Gray 00:30:14 So that was difficult.

Greg 00:30:16 Well, before before we were recording, we, we were talking a little bit about what, what people don't get about about Asia and the difficulties and sort of explaining it to people.

Greg 00:30:26 And as we're wrapping up here before we get into where people can find the book. Like what? What do you think for the future holds for Asia? Any predictions about you know.

Dennis Gray 00:30:38 I can answer anything but that one. But I don't.

Greg 00:30:40 Know.

Dennis Gray 00:30:41 I don't know. Well, we all hope for the best, but there are we. As we all know, there are many, many clouds on the horizon. hopefully the storm will never break, but, I mean, some of the. Just a few things, of course. Another place I fell in love with was Burma. And we all know what's happening to Burma now, and I just can't foresee any great future, at least in my lifetime, for Burma. I hope I'm wrong. I just don't see it. obviously, China's is is a very, very difficult thing to predict, but we all know that it's it's going to be a huge major power in in this in this in our region in Asia, perhaps not always for the worst, but sometimes definitely for the worst.

Dennis Gray 00:31:25 So I don't know. Very difficult for Thailand. I hope it maintains its great virtues, and I hope it doesn't adopt some of the vices that we find elsewhere in the world. But very, you know, in journalism, I've always been very low to predict things because I found quite often so many pundits, including journalists who talk about something and then predict something, and then 2 or 3 years later, it just doesn't happen. Something perhaps totally different occurs. So I've always been reluctant as a journalist, and that may be carries over into my, my, my, my makeup is that I don't like to predict because I've seen so many things, including my own. Not that predictions that I wrote about, predictions I thought would happen proved to be very rude, be totally wrong. So I'm very reluctant about what we all hope for the best. We love Asia, and we all hope and pray for religious for the very best. It's been a wonderful gift to me and I've had so many wonderful experiences, so many wonderful friends I've met here, and so the only thing I can wish for them, especially the younger generation that's coming up, that they, they, they experience some of the joys that I've experienced in my time in Asia.

Greg 00:32:39 Yeah, that's very well said. And I think you and I can sort of agree we're coming from the same place. And this is why we started the podcast, is because, you know, there's so much more to Asia, in our case, Bangkok. But for you, you've covered all over the place here. There's so much more here than the stereotypes and the, the, the sort of scratching the surface that you see in the West. And there's so much misunderstanding. And I think it's just we have to encourage people to continue coming over here and exploring and finding out the magic on their own, you know, and to to to have their own adventures, their own ways. But you don't do that if you're just sitting at home in front of the PlayStation five all day.

Dennis Gray 00:33:14 Right. Absolutely right. You're absolutely right.

Greg 00:33:17 Well, let's, where where where do people find the book and tell us tell us more.

Dennis Gray 00:33:22 Well, I mean, yeah, it's very in, in most of Asia now.

Dennis Gray 00:33:26 It's available in most bookstores, including bookstores in Thailand, Asia Books, and Kinokuniya here and even in Chiangmai. Story. It's available, and if it's not available, if they're run out of stock, which sometimes they do, you can. These days, you can always order from any of these bookstores that they'll ship it to you online. Any Amazon in the world will have it. And so I think it'll be very easy to get if you're interested in the book.

Greg 00:33:50 Yeah, it sounds fascinating. And you had a very successful release at the FCC in Bangkok recently, which I was unable to attend because I was in Canada.

Dennis Gray 00:33:57 Yeah, it was really great. And the reason I really found it really wonderful is that sometimes when these things happen, you know, you get some pretty silly, some stupid questions. But thankfully in my my launch there, they asked some very, very important and relevant questions, which I was hopefully happy to to properly answer. So I was it was a great audience that I really, really, actually, I sort of had trepidation, but as we all do, you know.

Dennis Gray 00:34:26 But I was very, very pleased. thanks to the, the audience there that night.

Greg 00:34:32 That's good. And of course, the moderator, Dominic, keeping everyone in line because he's. You don't want to cross him?

Dennis Gray 00:34:37 Absolutely. He can be very tough. He was very gentle with me. But. But he's a good, good one.

Greg 00:34:42 He's a great guy. He's a great guy. I admire him a lot. And he's he's been on the podcast before. I'd like to have him on again to to whip me into shape.

Dennis Gray 00:34:48 Right. Absolutely.

Greg 00:34:50 Well, Dennis, thanks so much for joining me. I'm really looking forward to reading this book. it offers a wealth of of insight and a look into places and events that most of us can only ever, you know, imagine. So I appreciate what you've done, and I'm looking forward to reading it. And I urge everyone else to go and read it, too, because books like this really, really give a valuable insight into understanding Asia.

Greg 00:35:12 And they're there. They're very, very much worth your time.

Dennis Gray 00:35:15 Well, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. I'm also a little bit worried, you know, what do you what what the hell are you going to ask me and all that? But it's been a very, very pleasant conversation. Conversation and we've never met. But I hope in the very near future we'll see each other face to face instead of over our telephone line.

Greg 00:35:33 Well, you said you got a guest house at your place and my momma didn't raise no idiots. So every time someone offers me a guest house, I'm. They're more.

Dennis Gray 00:35:38 Than welcome.

Greg 00:35:39 I'll let you know before I come up.

Dennis Gray 00:35:41 Thank you so much for the brandy. Good luck with all the podcasts you have done and we'll do in the future.

Greg 00:35:46 Great. Thank you so much, Dennis.

Dennis Gray 00:35:48 Thank you so much. Take care. Take care.

Ed 00:36:02 Dude, my first reaction is jealousy.

Greg 00:36:05 Jealousy. But also, I'm kind of glad that wasn't me.

Greg 00:36:09 Like, I don't know if I could put up with all the stuff that he did. You got it. You got to have kind of balls of steel to go through all that, you know?

Ed 00:36:15 But he's got stories, man. And I like stories.

Greg 00:36:18 Yeah. And I always say the real point of life, obviously the real point of life honestly, is at the end to have cool stories, and not a lot of people have as many cool stories as Dennis does. But but all those things he's seen, like, just imagine, like the weight of those.

Ed 00:36:33 Memories.

Greg 00:36:34 The weight of those memories, the stories that can just tumble out of you, which is, I guess, good. Why he's writing a book. But man, I think, you know, I think my life has been pretty eventful, but he compared to someone like that, it's hard to comprehend. Almost.

Ed 00:36:47 I guess what you want is great stories that somehow were not a threat to your life, right?

Greg 00:36:52 Yeah.

Greg 00:36:53 Yeah, yeah. You know, and war correspondents like Dennis, like, they're just they're a different breed, man. It's just the coolest job ever.

Ed 00:37:00 I know, I know, I know, it's totally romanticized and I'm sure most of the time is boredom. You know, one of my friends, described, being a trial lawyer as boredom punctuated by terror.

Greg 00:37:15 Right.

Ed 00:37:15 Because most of the time you're sitting around waiting for something, and then you have. And then and then you have to stand up in front of the judge. So it's, you know. So I'm sure being a foreign correspondent, it's probably a lot of boredom. Traffic jams, waiting for visas, like sitting in your hotel.

Greg 00:37:31 Right. And then you hear an explosion and you're like, okay, guess I gotta go to the office now.

Ed 00:37:35 That's right, that's right, that's right.

Greg 00:37:38 Yeah, yeah. So, really interesting. And just there's, there's a really cool guy not to take the attention away from Dennis, but there's a really cool guy I follow on Instagram.

Greg 00:37:46 His name is Chris York, and he's a war correspondent in Kyiv right now in Ukraine. Oh, while he's doing, he's doing some really, really cool reporting on Russia and what a fiasco this whole thing is. But yeah, man, just just guys like Denis, just balls of steel. The curiosity drives them to cover things that most people would run the other way from. So.

Ed 00:38:06 Absolutely.

Greg 00:38:07 Yeah. I'm really looking forward to getting the book, on and I'll get a physical copy for sure, because I would like Denis to sign that. That's right. Anyway, yeah. So thanks, Denis, for coming on the show. Great conversation. And everyone remember, to pick up the book at the bookstore or on Kindle or on Amazon or wherever you get books, because it's going to be a fantastic read. I'm looking forward to diving in for sure.

Ed 00:38:26 Thanks, Dennis.

Greg 00:38:27 All right, let's get into some love, loathe, or live with where one of us picks a particular aspect of living in Bangkok, which we discuss to decide if it's something we love about living here, loathe about living here, or have come to accept as something that we just have to learn to live with no matter how we feel about it.

Greg 00:38:41 In this regard, I got something for you.

Ed 00:38:43 Okay, brother.

Greg 00:38:44 I'm not sure if you've ever actually experienced this. And I don't think this happens only in Thailand. I'm sure it happens a lot of places, but I did go through it the other day and it kind of pissed me off a little bit. But I went to buy. My son had a cough, so I went to buy some some cough syrup for him. So this particular cough medicine had ephedrine in it. And that I guess, can be used to make all kinds of crazy drugs and speed. And the obvious. That's right. Not. That's right. Yeah. So so when I bought it, the pharmacist handed me a little clipboard and I had to write down my name and phone number, like, so they record who buys this stuff?

Ed 00:39:18 Damn. That's right.

Greg 00:39:19 Yeah. I'm not sure if you ever had that, but my first thought was like, no, I'm not signing nothing. Government's not getting any information on me, you know?

Ed 00:39:26 Right, right, right.

Greg 00:39:27 Looking over the fact that they probably have all the information they need anyway. Right, right, right. But I don't know, I think it kind of kind of pissed me off. And I'm just trying to. I'm trying. I'm buying child's cough syrup. Like, I'm not going to run out and distill this into a batch of yaba to take down to Malaysia or anything, you know.

Ed 00:39:43 That's right. Well, this is an interesting question. It's a good one for a poli sci guy like me, a rule of law guy, because, you know, it gets into this question of like, what is public and what is private? And of course, all of us want security and safety, and we want we don't want drug dealers to run the country or, you know, but then I don't want to get caught up in the net that's supposed to catch the, the, the money launderers, you know. Right. so I, I'm, you know, I, I follow a bunch of libertarian guys, you know, because I do I do political ideology.

Ed 00:40:15 And this is the kind of stuff that that they're outraged, like, utterly outraged about. And, you know, they want to be you know, they want to be off grid and they don't want their name in any database. And I got to be honest, I'm pretty bad about this. I'm pretty much just. Yeah. Here, take my information. Maybe I'm kind of defeated, so I the only thing that that pisses me off is like, if I have to, like, sign up for a new app to do some basic thing, right? You know, like that, like, I, I'm sick of just giving my information, you know, like, just to, like, like, ride a taxi or something like that, but, you know.

Greg 00:40:52 If it's a parking ticket or something.

Ed 00:40:54 Yeah. That's right. You know, if it's, a medical situation and in this case, it does seem like I know that I'm not a threat. I know that you're not a threat.

Ed 00:41:02 But of course, the law has applied the same to everyone. I think I would this would be this would be a that definitely be a live with. I mean, I know it's a well-intentioned thing, and as long as what they wanted for me wasn't a big burden, it probably wouldn't bother me.

Greg 00:41:19 Yeah, I agree, I'm gonna live with on this. It's just. I just find it annoying and, like. I mean, I understand if I went in and I bought, you know, like, a crate of it, but. Right. Exactly 120ml bottle. I think they can probably skip it, but. Yeah, well, whatever. I'll live with it.

Ed 00:41:35 Right. Well, I'm sure some of our listeners can relate. We've talked about the increasingly difficult banking regulations that are supposed to be they're supposed to be anti-money laundering, but a lot of just good, good dudes, expats, you know, now they can't open a bank account. So that kind of stuff would I would be infuriated if I was working a real job here.

Ed 00:41:57 And I'm totally above the board guy. And now the bank won't open an account. That would be a loath.

Greg 00:42:03 Yeah, I agree with that one. I agree with that one. But for now, when I buy child's cough syrup, I would like not to sign up my details to the FDA.

Ed 00:42:11 Thank you. Okay, a final thanks to our patrons who support the show. Patrons get a ton of cool perks and the warm fuzzy feeling knowing that they're helping and are never ending. Quest for cool content. Find out more by clicking support on our website and connect with us online. We're Bangkok podcast on social media. Bangkok podcast on the web or simply Bangkok Podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from our listeners and always reply to our messages. Unless, of course, you're an agent who sends endless pitch emails on behalf of a client.

Greg 00:42:43 That's right. You can also listen to each episode on YouTube. Send us a voicemail through our website that will feature on the show. Hit me up on blue Sky, I am great.

Greg 00:42:50 Thank you for listening everyone, and we'll see you back here next week for sure.